Episode 6: Surabhi Chauhan
Ok, so we cover a lot in today’s episode #6 of RFM because I am talking to someone who has achieved a lot at the young age of 28.
Surabhi Chauhan is an asset manager based in Mumbai, a role she reached after experiencing the realms of equity research, private banking and investment banking.
We, of course, talk about how to crack CFA despite a hectic work schedule and how the qualification has helped her. Then, we talk about careers. India is a big but tough market and she shares her hard-earned tips for success in all the four areas she’s worked in. Mentoring is invaluable in shaping a career and we talk about how she picked a mentor and what she learnt. Women in finance have always faced challenges; she is explicit about these, but we also talks about how she’s successfully tackled them.
Before I let her go… Surabhi shares her top three career lessons.
SO MANY EXPERIENCES.
SO MANY TIPS.
Listen, learn, grow.
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
[Tune]
Binod:
This is Binod Shankar and you're listening to The Real Finance Mentor Podcast, from therealfinancementor.com. The Real Finance Mentor is your go-to resource for insight and inspiration on careers and finance, CFA and more. I would think, "Why this podcast?" Well, my goal is to deliver insight and inspiration for your finance career, but making it one, relatable. This is not theoretical stuff. We zero in on the critical practical issues. Number two, authentic. No bullshit, no sidestepping. The topics, guests and questions are all from that perspective. And number three, take a chartered accountant, CFA charter holder, add 17 plus years as a corporate warrior, mix in 10 years of entrepreneurship, throw in a decade of full-time CFA training, add speaking, mentoring, cycling, and mountaineering and that's me. Welcome to the Real Finance Mentor. Or as they call it, RFM.
[Tune]
Binod:
Welcome to episode number six. Today's guest is Surabhi Chauhan and she's very young. You're going to get a serious attack of inferiority complex after you hear her out, like I did. Or you get inspired. Let's look at her resume. Surabhi went to Delhi Public School, by the way, one of the top schools in India, where she was sports captain, house captain, national level swimmer, classical dancer and member of the student council. She then graduated with a bachelor's in management studies from St Xavier's College in Mumbai, which is a top college. She's also passed all three levels of the CFA Program. Now that's just the academic part, let's talk about the career - Investment banker with JPMorgan Chase, private banker with Kotak Securities, AVP and equity analysis with Alchemy Capital, which, by the way, is a leading fund management house set up by the legendary Rakesh Jhunjhunwala. And now she manages money for high net worth clients. Oh, and I forgot, she's only 28 years old.
Binod:
So I thought this is interesting, someone who's spent so much time in different areas all related to the CFA program and investments and asset management at the age of 28. She's now venturing on her own and managing clients and portfolios and looking at markets very closely. So I thought it's very interesting for her to tell her story as to how she has journeyed, the challenges, the issues and her solutions to things. So welcome on board, Surabhi.
Surabhi:
Thank you very much. Thank you, Binod.
Binod:
Now I have to discuss with you because you're quite young, but you spent a very short time in some companies. You worked in JPMorgan, JEENA, Kotak, the famous one, which was Alchemy.
Surabhi:
Yes.
Binod:
Why is that? Do you think professionals should keep moving? Because there are two schools of thought, right? One is that you should stay in the same job for three to five years, others think you should keep jumping, so what's your take?
Surabhi:
So different people have different opinions when it comes to job stability. I will put it in this way, if you're not experiencing something which you are passionate about and if you're not learning, which is constant learning or continuously learning and becoming stagnant, then there is no harm in exploring new fields in professional life. The idea that a lot of people may consider you as a job hopper if you're going to keep on changing the roles or the organization quite frequently, it should not be the way. One should keep moving ahead, keep learning just to keep up with the rapid changes in the business world, in order to survive in this cutthroat competition. Your job security is something nowadays which is there in your control. You can control it, it's no longer in the hands of the employer, I believe. You can build your own marketability and then, the same thing, you can carry it around with you.
Surabhi:
Lastly, I would like to emphasize one more thing. The more companies you're going to work for, the more reputation you're going to build within the business community or the network you have, because you have different brands and you've worked in different sectors, I would say, different fields, right? In short, it'll help you to expand your network. It'll also help you to become more comfortable, in terms of when some business situation arises and you can figure out how to solve the issues. And lastly, all these experiences ultimately help you to grow in your life and ultimately in your career. That's my take on this.
Binod:
So what you're saying here, from what I understand, you went from research to business banking to private banking, so you learned what you had to learn.
Surabhi:
Yes.
Binod:
And at the moment that you felt that you were stagnating, correct me if I'm wrong, you moved on.
Surabhi:
Yeah. Also, at some point of time you realize what you're passionate about, what's your core area, or which area you like. Maybe for me it's asset management, ultimately I'm doing it. Maybe for somebody it's investment banking, maybe for somebody it's private banking. Over a period of time in different organizations, one will realize what they are actually interested in doing. And if you're passionate about something, then you can perform your 100% without any kind of stress and you can do really well. And as a result, you can move ahead in your career. This is what my philosophy has been so far.
Binod:
Well it seems that you've finally found your passion, which is investing in markets.
Surabhi:
Yes. That's my passion.
Binod:
Fantastic. That's something that most people don't get that early in life.
Surabhi:
That early, yeah.
Binod:
Yes. I mean they have struggled in their 30s and 40s they don't find that passion for the longest time, so you're lucky in that way that ... not lucky actually, I think you've experimented a lot, right?
Surabhi:
Yes.
Binod:
And tried different things.
Surabhi:
I decided to be contrary in this approach when it comes to the whole entire stigma of job stability. I decided what I really like, I followed my heart as well as my mind, I took calculated risks as well in terms of that and then I just went with the flow. So, so far-
Binod:
It's worked out?
Surabhi:
It worked out well for me.
Binod:
Good stuff.
Surabhi:
Yeah.
Binod:
So one thing comes to my mind, because you've worked in some top companies, right? JPMorgan, Kotak-
Surabhi:
Alchemy Capital.
Binod:
Alchemy, these are household names.
Surabhi:
Yes.
Binod:
And you've switched smoothly and easily among these companies, you've built up a network, but you must have had some help along the way. What I'm saying is, did you have mentors? I mean, how did you find them? How do you get them to help you? And describe, if you can, three ways in which mentors helped you.
Surabhi:
Okay. So as of now I'm going to talk about one of my early mentors, whom I happened to meet during my stint at the family office, which was Jeena. So Jeena Logistics is a company, they sold off their division to Thomas Cook and ultimately they got in some corporates and they wanted somebody to manage that. So they were hiring a team of people, right? Now I happened to meet the CIO of the company and then finally he offered me a position and he told me why don’t you get onboarded and that's where I'm going to get the real, hardcore fund management thing, because ultimately it's a family office management. That's where I met Mr. Gaurav Parikh. Mr. Gaurav Parikh, he has more than 30 years of experience in markets, equity markets, per se. He worked in different organizations also, prior to this, like KPMG et cetera.
Surabhi:
He helped me in several ways. So first of all, how I approached him, I approached him in the sense one has to be very discreet. So a lot of people, they're shy. What is this person going to think about me? Maybe it's too early to ask him, I don't know him that well. So what I realized, given his experience and exposure after all his 30 years of experience he's got, I realized that he can teach me a lot. So I just went straightforward to him and asked him, "I want you to be my mentor." To which he happily responded. And because a lot of people, they also see that eagerness, the passion, that courage and that discreetness in terms of communication, people like that.
Binod:
So before we go to the ways in which he helped, you're right, you have to be discreet when you approach a mentor.
Surabhi:
Be direct, yes.
Binod:
Very busy.
Surabhi:
Yes.
Binod:
Direct, but discreet.
Surabhi:
Discreet.
Binod:
They are very busy people.
Surabhi:
Yes.
Binod:
So very importantly, he must have seen something in you for him to spare some time to help you as a mentor.
Surabhi:
Obviously, yes.
Binod:
Obviously. Initiative.
Surabhi:
Eagerness.
Binod:
Eagerness to learn, proactive.
Surabhi:
Proactive.
Binod:
Yeah, things like that. So that's why I keep telling youngsters as well, I mean when they come and approach me or other people for helping mentoring, yes, do ask for mentoring, but then what is it that you're going to give back? What is the promise in you? What is the potential in you?
Surabhi:
Right.
Binod:
How do you demonstrate that? Don't expect a very busy mentor, very knowledgeable mentor to suddenly drop everything and come and help you, right?
Surabhi:
Yeah. So I believe youngsters should, actually when they join some organization at the early stage, they should identify people within their organization and find one mentor. You don't need to have multiple mentors, I believe. Find one right mentor for you and I think things will be, can work out really well. Yeah.
Binod:
So going back to the earlier point about the ways in which a mentor can help, the three ways in which this mentor helped you.
Surabhi:
Yes. So I would briefly talk about the same. So basically the first point I would like to say, he asked me to be more curious and inquisitive and essentially ... which means emphasizing on asking the right questions and to step out from my comfort zone, which ultimately helped me to strengthen my research and analytical skills, which is very important in research, you have to be very inquisitive and curious. Ask the right question when it comes to even asking the companies’ promoter or management. Second thing, he always advised me never to compromise on integrity. This is the very first, even in CFA, if you see people talk about ethics, which is a very important topic. So similarly, it in turn helped me in the asset management profession of mine, wherein I managed to get credibility or trust of my clients.
Binod:
Give me a few examples, without naming names, as to how you demonstrated integrity in dealing with clients.
Surabhi:
So I always believe never to overpromise with the clients. Whatever it is, just tell them discreetly. Even if you've made mistakes, please come forward and share. This was my logic and this is the rationale why I did this. Okay, things have not gone in the right direction, that's okay, people make mistakes. If I'm not going to make mistakes, if I'm going to be 100% right then I'm like a God. I'm not like that. So just come forward, before the client pointing it out to you, you just tell them this is what happened, but again, try to tell them these are the rationales why I've done that, how they work. Keeping all these things in mind, one should also focus on how you can improve. So this is very important, that comes as a part of integrity, coming forward and telling the mistakes.
Surabhi:
Now coming back to the point where Mr. Parikh helped me, the last point I would like to emphasize is that he shared a lot of insights with me, because he has worked in equity markets and in different professions also, being a CA & he has worked with KPMGand everything and got 30 years of rich experience. So he told me how exactly one should react in certain times of professional hardship or difficulty, or even when making wrong mistakes. So all these things he has shared, in terms of sharing his examples, feedback from this professional life, or his past mistakes. So I could relate to that now, presently, if I'm making any mistakes. So I can connect, okay, this is what Mr. Parikh has done, so I can easily relate to that and how he would have managed or how I should do it right now, keeping all those things in mind.
Binod:
It's very interesting, because I've been interacting with you for almost 15 months now, LinkedIn, et cetera, and one thing I notice about you is you never get, you never lose your calm. Whatever the situation is, the reply has always been the solution.
Surabhi:
Yes.
Binod:
There is no situation which is ... what do you call it? Desperate or lost.
Surabhi:
Or a panic situation.
Binod:
Or a panic situation. So I think, especially in markets, when you're dealing with markets with a lot of volatility and risk and loss is possible, I think if you panic then all is lost. I think that's a point that we will go to later.
Surabhi:
Sure.
Binod:
So another question I want to ask you of course, which I did not mention at the beginning, I think, this point that you've actually cleared all three levels of the CFA program, which I should have mentioned when I introduced you.
Surabhi:
Yes.
Binod:
But I'm making up for it now. So you were working when you nailed the CFA exams, all three levels, people who are working and people who write and study and write for the exams find it very challenging sometimes, because you have a nine to five, or eight to eight office schedule with clients and everything and then apart from that you have the massive curriculum and the looming exams, right? So describe for me three study challenges and how you overcame them in your CFA journey?
Surabhi:
So as you rightly said, obviously the biggest challenge would have been managing the office, or my work, along with the study schedule. That is, I think, the biggest challenge everyone is facing.
Binod:
True.
Surabhi:
Given the kind of work schedule I have, there is absolutely no schedule, I have to work whenever there's a need, right? I have to be always on my toes. Now, how I managed to overcome this challenge is that basically one has to be very focused on how many hours they have to allocate. They can design, every day they can design that plan, or they can do it on weekends as well. It depends on you, right? How many hours you want to dedicate. Now whenever you are dedicating any particular hours for your study, one has to be really focused. It should be distraction free study, you know? It should not be that you're doing multitasking and doing it simultaneously and that is the majority, that is the main reason why the majority of people also are unable to clear that, because they want to do multitasking. One should never do it. Try to cut off, focus all your time and energy towards the exam.
Binod:
Yeah. Don't keep switching between Schweser and Netflix and Schweser and Facebook.
Surabhi:
Yeah, yeah. That doesn't work, yeah. Absolutely that doesn't work. So in my case, given the fact I had Monday to Friday very hectic schedules, I used to keep my study schedule mainly during the weekends and I used to devote my entire time in that. The same thing, most important thing, is that while you're preparing for CFA, also communicate the same thing to your employers, also your boss, so that he can also become a little liberal. This is something, you're not doing it for yourself, but obviously it will also help the organization going forward.
Binod:
True, true.
Surabhi:
So one should always effectively communicate rather than hiding things and then managing it.
Binod:
So I'm assuming that your employers are more understanding? I mean you told them in advance?
Surabhi:
I told them in advance.
Binod:
And were they understanding?
Surabhi:
They were understanding. In fact they gave me, they told me, "If you want to take off ..." For example, in my case, I took almost 20, 25 days off before the main date, main exam date, so they were very understanding. They told me, "Okay, you should go for it, definitely." When it comes to topic wise, I would like to emphasize for me ethics and so on were quite a challenging subject, because again, ethics, some more subjectivity comes with the picture. Again, how I overcame this thing was by practicing extra questions from CFA Institute books and everything. Lastly, which is level two and level three preparation, I realized that I was taking more time in solving case study questions and essay questions than normal. So in short, I overcame this problem by solving more numbers of old CFA question papers and to time myself. So one thing is very important, time yourself. This is very essential.
Binod:
Especially in level three, I think.
Surabhi:
Level three, absolutely.
Binod:
A lot of people have issues in the morning, AM session, because essays are what CFA call a constructed response, where you look, you have a blank piece of paper on which you'll write your answers within a time limit and you're stressed.
Surabhi:
You're stressed, yeah.
Binod:
So unless you practice past exam papers and CFA Institute offers the past three years exams questions and guideline answers on the CFA Institute website. So candidates should go and practice and try to get more exam papers from previous years as well, so that they can write an essay quickly, concisely and clearly.
Surabhi:
Right.
Binod:
To the point, right? To the point.
Surabhi:
To the point, which is very important.
Binod:
Exactly. Right, so the CFA program is done now. Tell me five ways in which the CFA program helped or changed you. Not just as a professional, because that obviously, you learn more skills in various asset classes, et cetera, but if possible as a person as well. Because a lot of people tell me CFA changed me as a person, I've become more this or that or whatever. So what is your take on this?
Surabhi:
So the first thing is that it helped me to apply more discipline towards my overall approach in life and going forward, which is a very, very good thing, I would say, while preparing for CFA. The second thing is that obviously I come from a finance background, so sometimes what happens is either you can do an MBA in finance, a lot of people go with that way, or you can go with the CFA thing. So for me, CFA, again, for the majority of people it's a more affordable degree.
Binod:
True.
Surabhi:
But yet, vast. The topics are well covered and everything, so, in short, it gives you a good foundation in the finance industry as such. Yeah.
Binod:
And what else? Is there any other way in which it helped you?
Surabhi:
So basically when you have a CFA degree or CFA ... when you're cleared this thing and then you share some things with other people, you know, your clients or your future employers, then it also adds a lot of credibility, especially if you are in the field of finance. Because then they also consider, okay, she has gone through all of those things on a difficult path. It also gives you a holistic approach towards the different entire finance field and different asset classes and everything, which, in short, I believe that you can win a potential client with the help of that or you can manage to get a potential job, so this is very important what I have realized and it has helped me so far.
Surabhi:
In my personal thing, whenever I meet any client who actually comes from a finance background, who comes from an investing banking background and I'm saying that I have cleared all these things, so okay, he considers, given the fact I come from a non MBA background, I'm quite young as of now and less experienced compared to them, but then it also adds credibility in front of them. They think, okay, she has gone through the rigorous process and everything, now I think she deserves a chance. So at least that very first basic step, the first step in terms of winning a client or getting him on board, it actually helps you in that. They are willing to give me a chance.
Binod:
Yeah, exactly. So I think, I've heard this a lot of times from my students as well in my CFA class who are in private banking or in managing assets, client's assets, and after passing the exam and then they go to talk to clients, it changes. You are no longer seen as a salesperson, you are seen more as an advisor. The conversation changes. Or you go to meetings and you give your card and after your name you have three letters, CFA, suddenly people don't bullshit you, people take you more seriously, your credibility is enhanced, yeah?
Surabhi:
Yeah. So it basically works in case of, in my case again, more with ultra HNI clients or family offices or institutional clients, they actually emphasize all these things. They want to see, okay, the person is not only coming here to sell something, the person is also going to add a lot of value. And lastly, the most important thing, it also helps you in terms of expansion of your network.
Binod:
Correct, correct.
Surabhi:
Because all these events are being organized, I think the events are quite good, a lot of people are coming, industry people are coming and more experienced people are coming, so it gives you another gateway in terms of helping you to expand your network, which is very crucial in terms of at a later stage of your career, the normal job portals, the normal things won't get to you. It's mainly through your network, which will help you to succeed ahead, right? So this is very important. One should also emphasize how they can channelize it and how they can use the network which CFA Institute is providing.
Binod:
True.
Surabhi:
Yeah. So in my case, all these things happened.
Binod:
And one thing I want to emphasize, I think, on the credibility side, I think the CFA Institute is quite popular, increasing in popularity and growth in emerging markets, at least Asia, India, China.
Surabhi:
Right.
Binod:
So now it's not like 10 years ago, 20 years ago when people would say, "CFA, what?" Now people know what CFA stands for and a lot of people have passed out and they're managing client's money. That's quite-
Surabhi:
So again, it's not only from an Indian point of view, in terms of network, it allows you to get into the global network.
Binod:
Oh yeah. It's a global phenomenon. Yeah.
Surabhi:
Global. Because people are there in different parts of the world and this is something globally recognized, so I think it plays a very important role in shaping your career, yeah.
Binod:
Now something I wanted to ask you, specifically because of your very interesting experience, because you have covered so many sectors, you have covered equity research, you have been in private banking, you have been in investment banking, asset management, family office, dealing with ultra high net individuals at such a young age. Normally people do this in when they're 40, 45, have done this when they're 45, right?
Surabhi:
Right, right.
Binod:
And I'm sure our listeners want to know, what is it that it takes for success in these areas? Because these are the main areas for which the CFA qualification is relevant to, right?
Surabhi:
Right, right, right.
Binod:
So tell me the ingredients for personal success in each of these areas. And I'd talk about research, investment banking, private banking and asset management.
Surabhi:
Okay.
Binod:
Yeah.
Surabhi:
So Binod, I will put it in a very concise manner, given the fact there are four things we need to talk about. Now when it comes to research, let me put it in a very simple way, it required you to have inquisitiveness, the curiosity, because you'll be finding you'll be doing research, so you have to, again, ask the right question and why it is happening like that, or why the company is doing it like that. You need to be inquisitive. Second thing, obviously you have to deal with numbers, a lot of numbers, so there is no possibility of making an error. So again, that attention to detail thing, that quality comes into the picture. And lastly, it's logic. It's all about logic. Certain things have to be in place in terms of logic and these are the three qualities I believe one should have.
Binod:
So - inquisitiveness, attention to detail and being logical?
Surabhi:
Being logical, right.
Binod:
In research?
Surabhi:
In research.
Binod:
Okay.
Surabhi:
That's very important.
Binod:
Right.
Surabhi:
When it comes to investment banking, it's more to do with analytical skills, presentation and communication, because there again, when it comes to analytical skills, if you're working in the early stage as an early analyst or something, obviously you have to work on the books and everything, the number part and all. And lastly, when it comes to the investment banking part, which is a front-end job or a front-end profile, then it's more to do with presentation and communication, how well you are able to present in front of your clients. It can be a target client or it can be a potential client, which are coming with an IPO and why they should go with you only. So the presentation and communication, effective communication skills come into the picture that time.
Binod:
Okay. So I'm going to stop you here because, break it rather, because inquisitiveness, attention to detail, logic, analytical, these are the skills that a lot of chartered accountants, charter holders already have, right? Partly or wholly. But one thing that a lot of them doing have, a lot of them don't have is presentation skills and communication skills.
Surabhi:
Right.
Binod:
So did you have any issues and how did you get over them? Or how did you resolve it?
Surabhi:
So again, when it comes to presentation and communication, I do understand the things you've mentioned, that people possess all these things anyway during their course of time, but then when it comes to presentation and communication, I think one has to, the very first thing, think before you speak, this is one logic. And it has to be more concise and crisp. People don't want to hear long stories, they want to cut it short, but it has to be more crisp, backed by data as in everything, so I always used to do it that way, which people used to appreciate. In terms of communication, try to come to a solution which is win/win for both the parties. How you arrived that way, people also like that I think. So one has to find a win/win thing through effective communication. So these are the things. And if somebody's not good in that, they can become more proactive and try to take initiative. To a certain extent, it also comes with your personality.
Binod:
True, true.
Surabhi:
Some people are introverts, they are shy, and some people are extroverts. People who are extroverts, they're generally better with presentation and communication. In my case, I'm an extrovert.
Binod:
Okay, so that helps anyway?
Surabhi:
Yeah, anyways.
Binod:
Right. So we talked about investment banking, what about private banking? What are the three ingredients there for success?
Surabhi:
So the three ingredients, as for me, the most important one is relationship management, how you treasure the relationship with your clients. Second thing is networking skills, because obviously in terms of private banking you have to also expand your list of clients. So obviously through your network, how well you're connecting with people and how well you're getting them on board, it really helps you in succeeding in private banking. And lastly, good communication skills again I'm emphasizing. I think communication skills are mandatory in all the four aspects, which is research, investment banking, private banking and asset management.
Binod:
Yeah, I agree. Yeah, yeah.
Surabhi:
And lastly, listening skills, because a lot of people just communicate and, say, talk. You have to also listen to what a client needs. What are his requirements? What exactly is the person looking for? Rather than just saying, "Buy this, buy that, this is good for you, that is good for you." You just simply ask him or her what exactly their future goals are and what exactly they need. So effective listening skills are very important, which I believe a lot of people are lacking.
Binod:
Actually a lot of people hear, but they actually hear the reply. They're already, in their mind as you're speaking, replying or drafting the reply to your statement and they're not really hearing to listen.
Surabhi:
Right.
Binod:
So that's one, good listening, proper listening, I would call it active listening is actually an art on it's own and it takes a lot of time and effort-
Surabhi:
Absolutely.
Binod:
... to get it done right.
Surabhi:
Yeah.
Binod:
And of course, last but not least, asset management.
Surabhi:
I think the most important quality, which I realize one requires is humility, barring everything aside, keeping everything aside. Humility, why? Because sometimes, when it comes to asset management, you have reached that level that you're managing someone else's money, someone else's funds and those are typically big corporates, right? No matter how good you are in terms of analyzing and interpreting data, it is always important to recognize that you can be wrong or you could be wrong somewhere and one should definitely be willing to accept and learn from your mistakes. This is a very important thing. One should never be confident, because ultimately you are dealing with someone else's money, so you can be overconfident. One has to be confident, but in moderation, but never overconfident.
Lastly, one should have strong emotional control when it comes to asset management, because you're dealing with markets. Basically markets fluctuate constantly, sometimes a lot of intraday fluctuations are happening, or some geopolitical things are happening up and down, up and down. So I what I believe is that one should have strong emotional control and one should never panic from any kind of stressful situation, because ultimately all these things will lead to poor decision making in the heat of the moment. So strong emotional control is very essential.
Binod:
It's really interesting you say about emotional control, because if you read all the books or interviews of these famous investors, legendary investors, Warren Buffett or Howard Marks or Ray Dalio, they all emphasize this emotional control being more important than ... what do you call it?
Surabhi:
IQ.
Binod:
Yeah, IQ or technical skills.
Surabhi:
Right.
Binod:
Because it's very easy to panic when markets are crashing and very easy to get euphoric when markets are going up. But Howard Marks I think made his point very clearly; actually he linked in his book to behavioral finance and behavioral biases and herd mentality and things like that. So I think emotional control becomes absolutely critical to success in investment, right?
Surabhi:
Definitely Binod. In short, one should operate on logic rather than emotions, that's the sense of asset management.
Binod:
But that's easier said than done.
Surabhi:
Yeah.
Binod:
Most people-
Surabhi:
Yeah, the majority of people fail to do so.
Binod:
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Now of course you are a woman in finance and I think you mentioned that you are one of the top 100 women in finance as recognized by the All India Association of-
Surabhi:
Wealth Management, yeah.
Binod:
... Wealth Management professionals, right?
Surabhi:
Right.
Binod:
Which is fantastic at such a young age, right? To get this accolade.
Surabhi:
Thank you.
Binod:
So what I want to know from you is, what are the challenges that you've faced as a woman in finance? Because obviously it's a male dominated world and we know this, right?
Surabhi:
Right.
Binod:
Only a tiny fraction of analysts or fund managers are women. I think there should be more. So how do you deal with these challenges, or how are you dealing with these challenges even now as you deal with clients being a woman in finance?
Surabhi:
So basically I would like to talk about one challenge, which is the primary challenge I've faced so far being a woman in finance. It's very difficult to break the mold of having to be middle aged or a more experienced person to get some more credibility.
Binod:
Unless you gray your hair, or-
Surabhi:
Right.
Binod:
... wear big glasses.
Surabhi:
You have to be 35, or 40, or more experienced, right?
Binod:
Exactly, yeah.
Surabhi:
Because our industry, let's be honest, our industry is still very male dominated and pretty much an all-boys club, as in the normal parlance I would like to say. So that is one challenge I've faced, but then I managed to overcome it because I decided to be more proactive, more practical with a ready-to-go approach. Whenever my client needs anything, any kind of thing, I was ready with it. Also another thing, you have to work extra, you have to come over as thorough on work whenever you're meeting the client, et cetera. In short, you have to be more informed and well read, which is very important. And lastly, being young is not a disadvantage, I feel. I think it also keeps you bias free. As and when you become aged or-
Binod:
Older.
Surabhi:
... old and a lot of experiences, sometimes you become biased. So when you are young, basically you are bias free, you don't have any preconceived notion or something. I think that keeps your mind very open and flexible. And lastly, as a woman I believe that when it comes to male counterparts, as per the stats also, we can see and, Binod, you also agree, women have been EQ, emotional quotient, compared to our male counterparts and we have, in fact, performed really well in terms of making decisions pertaining to our investments, or anyone's investments, right? So we have in fact performed really well in terms of investment management. So all these things are there, I don't think ... if you're confident, if you don't differentiate yourself from others and you believe in yourself, you can really do well in all these fields, finance fields, per se. So these are the things which I've focused on and managed to-
Binod:
So basically that you're saying, yes, it is challenging, yes there are big hurdles.
Surabhi:
Yes, absolutely, yeah.
Binod:
But work harder, be smarter in approaching clients and proposing solutions.
Surabhi:
Yes.
Binod:
But also leverage on the strengths of being a woman, right?
Surabhi:
Right, right.
Binod:
Like you said, EQ for example. And I've noticed that in you, pretty calm, never get ruffled.
Surabhi:
Thank you.
Binod:
Despite volatile markets, right? I think women are also very good in what you call relationship management.
Surabhi:
Right.
Binod:
And what you call anger management. And this has been proven in research after research, so I'm not making it up.
Surabhi:
Right, right.
Binod:
And this helps, of course, when you deal with clients or their business.
Surabhi:
Definitely, absolutely.
Binod:
Now I looked at your LinkedIn profile and I found that you were a sports captain, you were secretary of the literary society, you're a national level swimmer.
Surabhi:
Yeah, yeah.
Binod:
Okay, interesting. And a classical dancer in school.
Surabhi:
Yeah, yeah.
Binod:
Now you are very focused on your career and I don't think you are doing any of this sport, swimming, classical dancing, if I am not mistaken. So what are your thoughts on work life balance? Because there's a school of thought that says, listen, don't burn yourself out, spend some time on doing all the other parts of your life and work is work. And then there's another school of thought saying, listen, you're young, this is the time you should slog and work your ass off. So which school of thought do you belong to and why?
Surabhi:
I belong to the second one.
Binod:
Okay, which is?
Surabhi:
Which is you are young and you should slog more and work hard to reach where you want to see yourself down the line. So for me, I guess work life balance is sometimes overrated. In my case, there is nothing like a work life balance if I'm being honest, because I really enjoy what I do. I really enjoy my work and, if you're really passionate about your work, you can do it anywhere, any time, right? So then work life balance doesn't come into the picture. Also I'm dealing with a lot of clients who are not only from India but from abroad, from different parts of the world, so different time zones are there and one has to also exist with their schedule, right? So for me, I understand that my job requires me to do that, but then I have no ... what do you call it? Regrets of doing this, because I really enjoy my work. In terms of, yes, I do agree sometimes one has to also keep some time for yourself and segregate the work and life, which is important, but I'm working on it. Let's see how it goes.
Binod:
So bottom line, you're saying work life balance is sometimes overrated?
Surabhi:
Yes, I absolutely agree.
Binod:
It's of course subjective.
Surabhi:
It's subjective to people. Yeah, right.
Binod:
Yes, exactly, exactly, exactly. Right, so let's get to the point of your self-development.
Surabhi:
Right.
Binod:
Tell me something that you're working on right now, some self-development project or projects that you're working on right now.
Surabhi:
So right now, previously we talked about the work life balance, so obviously this is one thing which I'm going to work on, in terms of focusing on my health, which might be getting affected because of the kind of job or the kind of work I have, where, as I said, I don't believe in work life balance, so obviously I'm pushing every day myself. So that obviously takes a toll on your health, so I'm going to be more focused on my health in terms of my mental health as well as physical health, because mental health is very important in the kind of work I am involved. You have to be more calm and composed. So I think yoga and meditation will help me in that. In terms of physical health, you have to do exercise and anybody ... there is a quote that a healthy mind lives in a healthy body, so I'm going to focus on that.
Surabhi:
And another thing which I'm also going to focus on is I try to sometimes focus on past mistakes and regrets, which I'm not going to do it. Obviously at some point in time somebody makes the wrong financial decisions or investment decisions, but that's okay. One should be more acceptable and move on, you know? You should learn from your setbacks and more mindful and more resilient. These are the things one should focus on. Right now I'm focusing on the same, yeah.
Binod:
Right. And of course finally we come to this part of the podcast, right? Which I ask ... because I'm very interested in what people have learned along their career. Because people come from different backgrounds and experience different things, right? Like yourself, for example.
Surabhi:
Yes.
Binod:
So what are three lessons, three key lessons that you have learned for life and for career?
Surabhi:
Okay. I think it's a very interesting question and I think it's important also one should keep on learning lessons, I believe in that. So the very first lesson which I have learned, which is very important, is never stop learning, not to become stagnant and your life is like ... past mistakes happen, regrets happen, that's okay, but one should keep on improving themselves. There is never-ending improvement you can see. The second thing I believe is be more humble, be more open, be more flexible. Either at some point at time you will be burned or buried, so ultimately one should allow himself or herself to be more acceptable, more open and connect easily with others, because you've got only one life.
Surabhi:
And lastly, I believe one should take calculated risks. I'm not saying baseless risk, it should be calculated, because ultimately we have also done CF and everything so you can relate. So when it comes to finance, it's not baseless risk you are taking, it has to be all this calculated risk. That takes you to somewhere which is much better and new. What I'm trying to say is that sometimes there are people who might not be supporting or might not believe in yourself, but that's okay. Listen to your heart and mind and whatever you want to do in life, you should do it. But it should be done within the ... what do you call it? By keeping in mind the calculated risk and everything. Ultimately there is a saying that there is no gain without pain, so one should always focus on that. So these are the three lessons which I have learned so far.
Binod:
So number one, never stop learning, number two is be humble and lastly would be take calculated risks, yeah?
Surabhi:
Yes. I think one should take risks in life, because either you'll make it really big, or that's okay, you can start again, I believe.
Binod:
Well like investing, right? No risk, no return, right?
Surabhi:
Right.
Binod:
Since you're a fund manager, you're an investor as well, so yeah. It sort of aligns with your values and your occupation as well. But thank you so much, Surabhi Chauhan, for taking the time from a busy schedule to come and be a guest on this show, on this podcast. Your journey is quite interesting, quite varied and quite different from a lot of other people I've interviewed.
Surabhi:
Thank you very much.
Binod:
And a lot of lessons for youngsters-
Surabhi:
Thank you.
Binod:
... having achieved so much in such a short career, at the age of 28 and being a CFA pass out as well. I hope people sort of take on board this ... what do you call it? The points and lessons that you have shared with me on this interview. And since you are so young, I wish you a fantastic future career as well. I'm sure it has only started and-
Surabhi:
Yeah, right.
Binod:
... I hope to see you rising to higher heights in the future. Thank you so much.
Surabhi:
Thank you, Binod.
[Tune}
Binod:
This podcast is brought to you by The Real Finance Mentor. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you found it insightful and inspirational. If you did enjoy this episode, please drop us a review and spread the word and be sure check out more exclusive content on therealfinancementor.com and my LinkedIn profile, which is Binod Shankar CFA. Let's keep in touch. Just add your name to the mailing list on therealfinancementor.com and we'll tell you about new episodes plus book reviews, upcoming events, and blogs. Till the next time- onwards and upwards.