Episode 40: Leadership takes courage

It’s useful to get different perspectives on career and leadership and a Human Resources view from someone in the C suite is both fascinating and valuable.

I’ve known Muhammad for a decade and have always been impressed by his calm, analytical and strategic take of life in general and career in particular. It’s an informed and candid view sculpted by 30 + years of experience in industry and consulting in the Middle East. We talk of mid-life career crisis, how to switch from industry to consulting, Diversity, Equity and Inclusion (DEI), why many managers don’t make it to leadership, when you should (and shouldn’t) do an executive MBA, strategic HR, the future of HR etc.

Listen, learn, grow.

You can check the entire video episode on youtube or enjoy reading the transcript below.

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The Real Finance Mentor | Binod Shankar · Podcast 40: Leadership takes Courage

(Music plays)

Hi everyone! This is Binod Shankar here with the real finance mentor Podcast, the podcast that brings you insight and inspiration for your careers. Today I have another guest who will throw light on many of the questions that most people have, regarding careers and leadership.

Hi everyone, this is Binod Shankar here, the real finance mentor with another edition of the real finance mentor podcast that brings your insight and inspiration for your careers. Today, as always, I have searched far and wide to bring you a special guest who will share his insights on careers, leadership, and carrier management, and of course, top tips for the executives.

I want to introduce my good friend, Muhammad Laghari. Muhammed is currently based in Dubai and works as a Chief Human Capital Officer for Abdul Latif Jameel International, one of the region's largest and most successful private businesses. Muhammed has worked for several years at Mercer, where he was Senior Principal. Mercer is one of the world's largest and most successful human resources consulting firms.

Muhammed holds an MBA from INSEAD, a master's degree in quality management, and several certifications, including a leadership coaching certification from Marshall Goldsmith, and that's a passion he shares with me. He's an aviation enthusiast. As you will see and hear as the podcast proceeds, he’s also a great storyteller. Muhammed and I met about a decade ago, and he has always impressed me with his authenticity, patience, and immense wisdom relating to his education and career, and life as a whole.

So, with that impressive build-up, Muhammad, welcome to the show.

It's a pleasure meeting you today, and you know, it's always great to see you. Thank you so much.

So, I have a lot of questions to ask you. But, I'm going to ask you a question that troubles many professionals at the mid and senior levels and that's about this mid-life career crisis. You've had a career spanning over 30 years. Why are so many senior professionals experiencing a mid-life career crisis these days?

Let me start by saying that 30 years is a long time. Something simple, I would say I've been working a lot for a long time and going through a midlife career crisis, I believe that's quite natural.

One of the ways I look at it is, when we start our careers, our objectives are different, our needs are different, and our requirements are different. You come out of school, or university and once you finish your studies, most of the time your primary objective is to find a job; you'll find a job and your needs start changing, right? You find a job in the place you wanted to be, which is a great achievement at that time, but your primary objectives are different from, for example- 15 years down the line.

I was talking to somebody very close to me, just a few days ago and I asked him, “how's the job going?”, and he says, “It's going well”

“How long have you spent there?” And he goes like “almost a year now”.

“Great! And what are you doing about the future?”

“Well, I'm doing well, I'm happy, the company is great, and work is wonderful”.

“I mean, that's wonderful, but what are you doing about the future?”

Usually, once we are happy and are doing a good job, the company is good, we are taken care of, and all the fancy stuff that people talk about is there, people just take it easy. And I think, it's those choices after the beginning and continuous changes and improvements that make a difference.

So, I would say, going through a midlife crisis or going through a point in your career where you may not feel as happy or as enthusiastic when you start, is very natural and normal and it happens to everybody. Circumstances change. Your requirements, needs, expectations, and aspirations change. It all depends on how you manage it, or how well-prepared you are for it. I'll be more than happy to describe and explain, from an HR perspective, and myself as an HR professional, how careers evolve. As we go through this discussion- how to look at these things I come across all the time at different levels with different people with completely different expectations. That's what I would say.

Binod Shankar: Interesting. I recall, when we had a call the other day where we were discussing the same topic and you made a very interesting observation, which was that- people need to be clear on their priorities and goals. But, then this is easier said than done, from personal experience, as well as experience in hiring and managing others. What are three ways by which they can be clear about their priorities and goals?

The way I would explain this is, when you work for an organization, typically, there is a pyramid organization. When you start your career, you're at the lower end of the pyramid, and the lower end of the pyramid is always brought up. This means, there are more jobs and roles available.

Let’s say for example if we talk about people in finance or your finance and accounting divisions, a lot of people will join an organization as a typical financial analyst, or an accountant. The point where you've just come out of college, university, or school and have the expectation that you have certain technical skill sets. Now, you haven't worked anywhere yet, and I'm saying, at the very start, your university or college degree gives us, as HR, a bit of confidence that you've gone through a certain set of courses and stuff in your school.

That's when people would also be asking you for your transcripts because they want to know how well you performed. Are you somebody who understands these concepts and stuff? And then over time, you will be taught skill sets as you join the organization. I'm sure you've heard, ‘you hire people for their attitude, and skills is something which is learned on the job’. So yes, it's kind of true. That's why your probation periods are put into place because it is expected that your behavior, your attitude, and how you interact with others, the soft skills in terms of communication; that will be observed. If you meet their expectations and can live up to the culture of the organization, you will then be accepted, and hopefully, you’ll grow. Just like the pyramid is narrow at the top broad at the bottom, in terms of, you know, in terms of your career, and how long you stay in jobs is the other way around. What you should expect is that; for example, when you're an accountant or a finance analyst, let's say you will be staying in the role for a year, maybe two years, you will progress into a senior, and then you will become a supervisor, and then you will become a manager.

Eventually, for example, you become a financial controller, or maybe even a CFO. Job titles are interesting because it's a fancy way to keep people happy. That's the way I look at them. But the interesting thing is, as you grow in your organization, the expectations change from just simple technical skill sets to other competencies. For example, you know, there are certain behavioral competencies, which you're expected to display, and there are certain leadership competencies, which you're expected to display. On top of that, you're also expected to learn in terms of developing yourself and your skill sets. So, the expectation is that you will grow, and growth will be in all of these areas.

I'll give you another very simple example. I've seen people coming up with these fancy programs; “we are bringing these new people in and we are putting them on some sort of a training and development program”, and then when I see some of them; for example, I see that they will spend a few months on leadership development. My question is; What is the point of taking them through a leadership module? Because this is something that they will probably have to display after a few years in their career. Right now, with your soft skills, you can communicate while you can work with others. For example, you become a team player. I mean, that makes a lot of sense, right?

So again, as we grow in our careers, the expectation keeps on getting more and more and this is also one of the reasons why the expectation is that you'll stay longer in a role as you go up the ladder. In simple, what I'm saying is, an accountant, maybe after a year, or two years should expect some sort of growth, not only a salary increment but also growth in terms of job title and responsibilities. But, when you're a finance manager, and if you are a finance manager for five years or seven years, that's perfectly fine. The expectation is that- you're leading others.

There's a very interesting book, The Leadership Pipeline, it is based on the GE model of leadership development where they create a zigzag model of how you progress through your career. You are an individual contributor, you go into a supervisory or managerial role where you get stuff from others done and then you go to the next level, where you get stuff from those who then get it done from others so you can keep on growing. Interestingly, if we understand that, and if we prepare for that, that is how we can get over or be prepared.

When the stage comes where some people might be facing a midlife crisis, and like that example, which I was talking about earlier on- if you're happy and comfortable with what you're doing, after three years, you go to your organization, you'll say, “Well, I've been here three years; I expect a promotion or something”. They could turn around and say, “well, you're doing the same thing over and over again, what new have you learned? What is it that you bring to the table, that we should take you to the next level if the expectation is 10- your best?” To me, it's maybe the first step, the second step, but after that, unless I see something, unless there is a reason for you to be at the next level, why would you do that? I think it's all about how we face these challenges and how we prepare for these challenges unless there is discipline, there is the determination to move ahead. Some people could be lucky, but in general, those who can display growth in terms of their skill set, in terms of their behavior, in terms of their leadership abilities, eventually, will cross the glass ceiling very quickly.

Further to what I just tried to explain; how do you do this and how do you prepare- I would advise people is self-analysis and self-awareness that is very important. You have to analyze your strengths and weaknesses yourself, and nobody knows you better than you. Sometimes with all due respect, you miss or just fall somewhere, but that could happen once or twice, and doesn't happen all the time. So, one has to be very honest and clear with oneself. Once, when you know where you want to be in your career, you have to try to understand and have to prepare yourself. So, you would know, some people would be very good, technically, and others may be very good in terms of their managerial abilities. Usually, in HR we say, “everybody generally starts as a generalist”. The usual expectation is, you'll always start as a generalist, and then you come to a point where you either go on a managerial path, or you take a technical path, and you know the best about what your strengths are.

If you want to go into a managerial path, you have to make sure you work on those skill sets and those competencies. If you believe that, that's not something you’re good at, that's perfectly fine. There's nothing wrong with that. That's where you take that decision. You upskill yourself in terms of your technical abilities, and your expectation which you should always obviously share with your organization is that you would be taking a technical path and could become an analyst, then a very good one, and then a super one and then a super, super good one and that's perfectly fine. I think this is something to keep in mind always.

Another point, which comes to my mind, is that; we started with your choices in terms of career and all of that. Talking about people in the Middle East, a lot of us come to the Middle East for very obvious reasons. One of them is, the financial game that we have when we come here. Generally, it's a tax-free environment, it's a very safe place to be in and I'm speaking for where I'm living; which is Dubai, it's a wonderful, great place. I think one other thing, one should probably also practice is counting your blessings every day. I've come across so many people that achieve whatever they have to and go some other place, and then they realize what they have given up. Counting your blessings, making sure you're sure about what you're doing, and what you wish to achieve, helps a lot in terms of us being satisfied because I think the end goal is always to try and be satisfied because if you're not satisfied, all the money and the success in the world; you will just not be happy. That's how I would look at it and advise people that if you can keep these few points in mind, they should be able to get over issues they might think you're facing.

Binod Shankar: You did an executive MBA from INSEAD. Now, this executing MBA route is taken by many in their 30s and 40s and I know many who’ve done that, many of them who feel stagnated and hope that an MBA from a top business school will help them rise in their careers. What are the three things someone must consider before enrolling for such an expensive program in terms of both time, effort, and cost money as well?

Yes, I see that a lot of times. This takes me to the previous point that we are talking about; added qualifications are great. Added qualifications mean- when I talk about certifications or any of these degrees, what you're proving is that you can go through a certain body of knowledge. You were then tested on that body of knowledge; you're found to know the concepts in that body of knowledge. The expectation is that, by knowing that you will be able to do other stuff, which you may not have been doing in the past. The beauty of it is aligned with whatever you wish to achieve in your career.

I was explaining to somebody one day, and I said “I want to do something. I don't do anything, but I start praying”. Prayers will not get you anywhere. It's great to pray, it's great to be humble, and it's great to have good expectations, but prayers alone will not get you there. You will also have to do something. Now, in terms of an INSEAD MBA, you're right. It's a very expensive program. If your organization is sponsoring you, that means they have something in mind for you. That means once you complete the program, there is something they will do to help you in terms of your career based on this knowledge, the skill sets the network that you gain out of INSEAD. But if that is not the case, then going to INSEADis just like a prayer. You go, you spend a lot of money, you come back, and your organization doesn't want you there. You went there of your own free choice. If you do that, you have to be prepared in terms of how you're going to benefit from this investment that you have made in yourself. A lot of the time, I find people very unhappy and frustrated; they made this investment, and nothing was given back to them, while they were not asked to do that in the first place. You did it of your own free will. If you did it, you should have had a plan, and if you didn't have a plan, then you can't blame anybody else. I would always advise people to think about where they want their careers to go.

By the way, after doing a lot of this in my life, after actually having worked with so many people, I don't recommend MBAs to anybody anymore. Unless your organization is sponsoring it, they definitely must have a plan for you. Always try to understand what that plan is, and go for it. It's wonderful. Otherwise, try to go for recognized certification programs. I believe these are way more valuable. There is a lesser investment in terms of time and effort, and you could have multiple certifications in different disciplines where you want to excel in your career, and they're equally beneficial. They're equally great to help you grow in your career. That's the way I see it.

I'm looking at your CV and LinkedIn profile. What immediately catches one’s eye is that you're a principal at Mercer, which means you're a very senior person at the leading global HR consulting firm. We're also one of the very few non-Westerners in such a role, which I find fascinating. So I have two questions here. The first is, how did you get to and stay in a demanding environment?

Firstly, I would also add, I was not only a non-Westerner, but I was also a non-Arab. These days, a lot of these firms have been recruiting people with Arabic language skills, which is very helpful. I'm not saying it's not a good idea, but I'm just trying to emphasize the fact that yes, I was not an Arab nor a Westerner, and I was working for myself.

What I'd say about it, is- number one, Mercer, an organization similar to Mercer. Number one, I have seen, they are amazing at spotting and nurturing talent. These are great places to work. I used to tell my friends, when I was at Mercer, that your learning curve at Mercer just basically becomes so steep. You come across so many people, in terms of projects, and terms of different work environments. Mercer is simply an amazing opportunity, I had in my career. I honestly don't know what they thought when they brought me on board, but I can tell you about what I did when I was at Mercer.

When we started and joined, Mercer had just recently established their offices in the Middle East. We weren't very well known yet in the Middle East, but I can tell you honestly, that within a few years, roughly two years, we were a name, which was very well recognized in the market. I mean yes, Mercer is a global brand for us. It is a very well-known organization, around the world, but over here in the Middle East, it was still not that well-known. Me and a few other colleagues, who started the master office over here, really worked very hard. We created a name for ourselves, and we became one of the go-to organizations when somebody wanted to do anything in HR, and I personally because I was leading the Rewards business. That happened to be the biggest business at the time for Mercer in this region. I can honestly tell you, I was one of the highest revenue-earning principals in the whole of the EMEA region on the consulting side. There are so many amazing and interesting projects that we did while we were at Mercer.

In terms of how I stayed there, one has to be very client focused, and one has to be very client-centric. Consulting is not easy, it’s a changing environment all the time. There are new people, new projects, and new things that you're doing all the time. Different people require you to come in and find solutions to issues that they would be having. There isn't a one-size-fits-all, so you have to work with them. You have to partner with them, and you have to respect them, to be able to deliver something which will benefit them. It was honestly an amazing journey.

One other point that I would also like to make; the endorsement that you get from your clients is when they come back to you for more and more. I'll read to you a very simple event; when I decided that I wanted to move on from Mercer and come to the role that I'm currently in, they were very kind and hosted a little farewell event for me. I remember, our market leader actually wanted to come and join that event, and he was there. He looked around, and asked everybody, “so what is it that you have learned from Muhammad?” I was so pleased because all of my colleagues said very kind words. Somebody would say, “he's great to work with, and he's technically very strong”; we've learned this, and we've learned that, and this gentleman, he kept listening. Eventually, he said, “Well, I didn't hear one thing, which I was expecting all of you would say”. People give up, and this is when the guesswork starts. This is when he said, “have you ever noticed everyone who's worked with him? All of his clients come back for more”. That was amazing because that's when I started thinking about it myself, and then I said, yes, it was everybody we worked with who would come back for more. Sometimes they might even say it to make you happy, but there have been instances where somebody said, “we have decided in the future, we're working with nobody else except Mercer”, and we were the face of Mercer. We were the ones delivering whatever they needed. It was a great place to work, and I think it was a great learning experience. There's so much I would say about what I picked up, while I was there.

My second question to you Muhammad is since you spent a lot of time in the HR consulting region; what are the three most important things that you learned about the practice of human resources in this region because each region has its peculiarities?

It's very interesting.

Sometimes, when I was at Mercer and somebody would ask, “what does Mercer do?”, and I would say, “we are into HR consulting”. The next question was, “so, you’re doing recruitment?” I realized that, when it comes to HR, lots of people think an HR’s primary role is recruitment. Yes, it's part of HR’s responsibilities, but HR is a lot more than that. When you come into the corporate side, you also realize that, even within organizations, people tend to believe HR’s primary role, number one is, personnel management. What it used to be many years ago, which was maintaining personnel records and files, helping people with letters that they might require in their day-to-day jobs when they're doing something with somebody externally.

In recruitment, I realized that lots of people within organizations believe that, it's their job to go find somebody and then hand it over to HR and say, “you have to help us with the onboarding process”. Yes, that is part of recruitment, that is part of the responsibility, but HR is a lot more than that. The other thing that I've felt is that there are two functions, which I believe people usually look at it is, anybody can do it. Number one is HR, and number two is communication. These are two things, which everybody will come across especially when they're in managerial roles or senior positions. They're experts at it, and they don't need anybody's help with it. These are something which is the primary roles. On top of that, one might find this even more amusing. A lot of people I believe; when it comes to improving HR or getting more from HR, the expectation is that ‘let's start sending out birthday wishes on your birthday, celebrating birthdays by getting a cake in the office, or writing somebody a note on their work anniversary’. These are all good things. I'm not saying it's not good but that is not HR’s primary role.

HR is your people partner, that is the team that should be able to help you with anything and everything related to people or the people who work for you. Sometimes, within my team, people would use terms, for example, “we have to get this and we have to get that done”, and then it has to come to HR for approval. I always tell them, that HR is not the person police. It doesn't have to come to HR for approval, it is our role to provide them with the right advice, it is our role to provide them with the right market data, and make sure that we can understand and communicate to them what best practices are so that they would then be able to work with us, to do whatever is best for them and their people.

This is something that I have seen, not in one organization, but especially in my consulting days. I realize I've seen a lot of places. I wouldn't just give a blanket statement that everybody is like this, but lots and lots of places are very much like this. I think unless that perception or understanding of HR changes, to benefit from the expertise of your HR team, becomes very limited. That is what my experience has been, about the role or the expectations from HR in this region.

I would further add; for example, if somebody comes and says, “Hey, we need to make a promotion for person XYZ”, and you would be like, “Okay, great, so this is the policy”, and they would be like, “what policy? I need to do this”. There are policies, and we have to have consistency across the organization, so policies people don't like are very unfortunate because if we can follow the rules, we can follow the policies. It ensures that there will be consistency in our approaches so that everybody will be given an equal opportunity and everybody will be recognized for whatever they're doing; you could have more consistency.

The other thing, which I've also realized is that, for example, I'll talk about finance. You were in finance yourself, and somebody wants to go for a salary increment; I've had people coming to me and saying, “I want to increase this person's salary by 2000 Dirhams”, and you're like, “Okay great, why 2000 dirhams?”

“Well, I think that's appropriate”,

“Based on what do you think it's appropriate?” “I'm the one who helped participate in the market survey. So, I have that data. Why don't you sit down with me and discuss it with me, and I'll tell you what the market looks like? I'm the one who has the internal data for the organization, and we usually refer to it as the ILM, the Internal Labor Market. Let's sit down, let's look at it, and let's do something fair, right?”

So for example, in the absence of any fixed policy on, you can do this, and you can do that, which, I'm not a very great fan of because in the old days, you might recall lots of different organizations that used to have the step structures. Every year, you would go from step A to step B, and then step C, and then to step D, and every step was worth, 3%, or 5%, of your reward structure; now that, I am not very fond of, because the market does not shift based on your steps. You have to always be aligned with whatever your reward strategy is in terms of the market. You should be able to make sure that you can reward people according to their performance, their skill set, and the market. These are things that you do not see in lots of organizations, and this is why, the best you can make from your HR people, is to respect what they have and to work with them. They are your business partners, and they are in it together. If you do well in sales or marketing or somewhere else, everybody will do well. It is in HR’s interest to work with them, support them, understand their requirements, and understand their needs. It's always a two-way street. The general perception of HR just revolves around the recruitment function, the onboarding function, or the personnel management function. It's very unfortunate, but that's what I saw.

This is a very relevant, interesting question to me, because 15 years ago when I was a finance director when I first heard the term strategic HR, and someone who was a qualified, experienced HR professional explained to me that; visa, medical, recruitment, and onboarding are not what HR should be primarily focused on. So ever since then, I've been very fascinated by why HR focuses on that, but now I understand that it is largely due to the composition of the workforce in the region, which you and I talked about some time ago. Nevertheless, I think it is changing slowly for the better.

I'll add to that when you talk about strategic HR.

One of the reasons why HR should be there is when you're developing your strategy. For example, in any organization you’re selling 10,000 units of something called X, you're expecting that in five years, you will be selling 50,000 units. 50,000 units mean you will probably be needing more people, more managers, and more tools. There are so many other things that you might need to achieve that objective, and to do that if you don't have HR around with you; how are you going to ensure that the right number of people will be there with the right number of skill sets, and the right number of tools that need be available so that people will be able to perform and get to where you want the organization to go?

Sometimes, organizations are diversifying. For example, you were in something called ‘X’ now you're going to also start ‘Y’, which is a completely different industry. How are you going to get ready for it? Do you want to go every time and get external assistance for everything you're going to do?

Why not think strategically, why not start building today, where you're going to be tomorrow? This is what the role of HR is because at the end of the day, whatever we do, our people definitely become and always are our biggest assets. The right people at the right place with the right skill sets, and the right attitude, that is what matters.

In terms of our organization, we are supposed to be one of the largest distributors of an automotive brand, globally. When people come into our showrooms, if we have happy people, people who are motivated, and people who have all the right skill sets, it helps them to sell more naturally and connect with our clients. If we don't do that, the product might still sell, but it won't probably achieve the potential it has. People are so important to any organization. If HR is given the right opportunities to support your strategic initiatives, (that is what strategic HR is all about), you will be able to do that for much less.

I'll add another example to that. That point around recruitment, you can easily go to a recruitment firm, and they will charge you an arm and a leg for your recruitment. If you build that within your organization, imagine how much you can save, because when your HR is looking for people, they understand the culture of the organization better than your external support. They will bring you not only people with the right skill sets and behavior but also people trying to focus on bringing people who would fit into your culture.

Very unfortunate, but generally, people don't even think about a bad hire. Sometimes, you have all these analytics in place; if somebody came in and stayed with the organization for less than six months, and then went away. Had anybody ever thought about the impact this person might have had? Not only do people go away, but there is also always a chance that they will take others away with them. These are very strategic, important questions to understand, and address. If you don't do that, I see lots of fancy stuff happening; ‘well, let's do this, let's do that, let's do a survey, and let's do something else’. End of the day, how will your organization benefit from it? Unless and until that is clear, fancy stuff doesn't get you anywhere.

Binod Shankar

Interesting discussion on strategic HR, maybe should form part of an article that you should write or a blog.

My next question is about this interesting career transition you made, you switched from consulting in Mercer to an industry where are right now you are the Chief Human Resource Officer of one of the largest private businesses in the Middle East. How easy or tough was that transition? And what are the lessons for people who want to change from consulting, in any field, not just HR, but also to the industry side?

Muhammed Laghari: Well, for me, it was interesting because I came from industry to consulting, and then from consulting back to the industry. So I could probably say, it was not that difficult for me because I'd already worked in the industry.

The switch to consulting was the tricky one. I'm told, when I was being considered for the role, one of the biggest questions they had in their minds was, ‘this guy has never been into consulting before! How will he be able to cope?’. When I was told this, I was also told that I was one of the most successful in terms of what we achieved a year or two years after I was at Mercer. So, going back into the industry was not that big of a challenge for me, but I can talk about that.

The thing to understand in consulting world is very different from the industry. When you're in consulting, your focus is usually not very long-term. What is the length of a project? It could start from being a three-day project to a yearlong project, or maybe a year-and-a-half-long project, but eventually, it finishes. You hand it over to somebody else, and then you move on. Consulting is usually a very short-term focus compared to industry, and especially also compared to what you're doing in terms of your work and career. That is one, and the other is consulting is very much advisory. For example, if you invite me to come and help you to find a solution for something, to create something, or to build something, I'll come and start with some sort of a diagnostic, trying to understand what your requirements are, help you to find a solution, create or build for you, whatever is needed, maybe train your people a little bit on it, and then move on, because then somebody else is going to take care of it. On the other hand, the industry is very difficult. Over here, whatever you get into, you have to stay with it. A decision you make today might be very relevant a year from now, two years from now, or three years from now.

You keep on building upon what you have started, and that means a very different focus. The other thing that you will find in terms of differences between consulting and HR functions in the industry, or any other department or function within the industry, is in the consulting world your . team might remain the same although consulting also tend to have comparatively higher turnover rates because people would come in, stay there, and move on to somewhere else. Generally, the people that you meet, in terms of the projects you do, or the work you do, would be very short-term engagements. The length of a project, that's usually the length of how long you work with people, so you just adjust to the needs of whomever you're working with, you adapt to whatever is expected of you to be able to deliver and provide to them what their expectations are.

In industry, when you're working for a function or department, you see the same people every day, and that means you adapt to the requirements of that culture, and then you stay and stick with it. If you don't like something about it, you try to work on it and improve. If there are good things about it, you adapt and build upon it. There's a fundamental difference in terms of what you do, when you're a consultant versus what you do when you are in a regular department, in any organization.

So, that is something to keep in mind when you're planning to do a shift, and it could be either way. You're going from industry to consulting, or you're going from consulting to industry, one has to understand that these are some of the fundamental differences, and you have to be prepared for it. You have to make sure that you can live up to expectations, especially in that way.

The other thing that I was going to add to what I've explained is; expectations and objectives are also always very different. When you're in an industry versus when you’re in consulting because when you're in consulting, your primary objective is to make sure that you can do something which your client will benefit from. You want to do the best for them. You will work long hours, you will go the extra mile, and you will do whatever is needed to make sure they can achieve what they engaged you for. When you're in an industry, things are a bit different because now your focus usually is your internal clients, and a majority of the time, since you work with them, you've been there long enough and you are pretty aware of culture, you're pretty aware of the expectations.

Whereas in consulting, it's somebody new all the time, so you have to make an extra effort because organizational cultures are different. As a result, expectations are different. Okay. Similarly, work pressure and consulting deadlines are very strict. I used to tell my friends, especially when I was at Mercer; based out of Dubai, having a majority of our clients all over the GCC region. If you take a flight from here to Bahrain, it's only a 50 minutes flight, but it is international travel, so you have to go through all of those steps for international travel; you go through immigration, and security checks, and you have to wait in airport queues, wait in airport lounges which is stressful.

I remember once, I was getting on to a flight, probably like 5 or 5:30, in the morning from Dubai, going to Muscat, spending the whole day in Muscat taking a flight from there at nine o'clock in the evening, flying to Riyadh, in Saudi Arabia, arriving in Riyadh, sometime after midnight, going to the hotel, probably reaching there say like two o'clock in the morning, and then being ready for the seven o'clock breakfast. At 7:30, you leave for the client, eight o'clock you're on at the client site. Imagine, how stressful that is, but also understand that your client d oesn't know what you just went through. He is paying for it, heexpects you to be sharp and ready to deliver. That's an obligation. You have to make sure you're on your best behavior and will deliver according to their expectations. That kind of pressure also takes a lot of toll, in terms of your health, in terms of your work-life balance, and compare that with a regular job where I come at nine o'clock in the morning, leave at five in the evening. Sometimes, I'm working late, I'm going seven in the evening, and it's just two extra hours.

That makes a big difference in terms of your work-life balance, and that's why consulting takes its toll if you are client-centric. If you want to deliver upon expectations, you have to be very disciplined because otherwise, you will start getting affected. So, for somebody who plans to go into consulting, this might be something to keep in mind.

On top of that, I think there is also a very different mindset when it comes to industry versus consulting. For example, you're going to a regular job; the people around you are all well known to you, say, for example, ‘today I come to work and for some or the other reason I’m not feeling very well, I’ll talk to my colleagues and say, “Hey listen, can we do this tomorrow?”, and people will be fine, “that's tomorrow”. It doesn't work like that in consulting, right? You could ask your client, and most of the time they're very gracious, and tight, but again, they have deadlines to meet, and you have to find ways on ensuring that those deadlines are met. Different mindsets, different kinds of pressure, different kinds of objectives, and different kinds of expectations, that's why I say consulting and industry are just two different worlds, unless you have it in you, consulting can be quite a tough job.

I’d turn to a favorite topic of mine, which is upskilling and leadership, specifically. You have worked with many leaders, both in your previous role in consulting, where you obviously have liaised with leaders within Mercer as well as leaders in your client space. And now, as the CHROof a large local group, you are dealing with leaders all the time, across different time zones as you explained to me. I have seen many managers who stay at the manager level and never proceed to the next level of leadership. Finance managers will never become Finance Directors, HR managers will never become CHROs, etc. What do you think are the three things that prevent managers from stepping up to leadership?

Muhammed Laghari: There's a very interesting saying around that. You grow or stay within an organization for as long as your skill sets are important. If you know that your skill sets are important, you then get the courage to step up.

A lot of the times I've seen, people would not step up, in terms of stepping up to leadership, or in terms of stepping up within their careers and going into leadership positions. One of the primary reasons is courage, determination, and knowledge. When I talk about knowledge, I mean, skills and the right competencies, because if you have them, there is no stopping you. Interestingly, I'll share with you in terms of my career, as I said, I've moved from corporate, gone into consulting, and then gone back into corporate. My experience has been that

unless you're willing to take risks, unless you're willing to go into a different environment, which may not be in your comfort zone, the probability of succeeding or growing becomes much less. I've seen people going into their comfort zone and avoiding any form of conflict. The thing is, conflict is not always bad because, as long as you can make sure that any form of conflict or any form of disagreement is addressed objectively, and you have good reasons to get into that, then there's no stopping you.

On top of that, sometimes, people will not step up to management or will not do something, because they already know their own weaknesses. As a result, they just want to avoid any form of exposure. ‘Things are going, let it go, why do anything? It's very unfortunate, but it does happen a lot of the time. In terms of working with senior managers or supervisors, or someone they just don't know, they don't feel like upsetting somebody or getting into someone's bad books. That again stops people from doing things that would otherwise be very necessary.

I think this is another area that stops people from actually doing the right things at the right time, and at end of the day, unless you have the right skill sets and have the confidence to step up and do something, it doesn't work.

Let's turn to your field, which is HR, and you have spent a lot of time there. I have a set of two questions here. First, tell me three ways in which HR has changed the last decade specifically in this region.

The Middle East region is a very exciting place to be in.

Especially if I can talk about Dubai, people are always trying out new things, people are always wanting to do something better than before, people are always trying to change and evolve, and HR, over here in this region has gone through a very interesting evolution process. I do see a lot of evolution in terms of changing from pure personnel management to HR management. The perceptions of HR are still not very clear, but it has evolved; from total bookkeeping and record keeping, it has changed. A lot of functions have come into being like training and development, leadership, and career development, within HR departments in this region. That is a very interesting and a good, positive change.

On top of that, this region is also one of the frontrunners when it comes to digital. They are so fond of trying and adopting new technologies. The same has happened to HR, a lot of HR now has become very digital, and I always say there's a big difference between digitization and digitalization. When we talk about digitalization, we are talking about a complete change of mindset; your processes should change, your systems should change, the way you think should change, and the way you take decisions should change. Compared with that, digitization is when you move from paper to something which is more electronic. I would say we are still more on the digitization part. Digitalization will take its time, and change the way we think, the way we process, and the way we take decisions; it's still going through the evolution process, but HR in general, has become quite digital with lots of organizations.

The other thing which I've also seen, a very positive change is that there is a lot of analytics. Lots of countries today have HR dashboards. They want to look at their analytics. People would want to know, ‘what is the ratio of males versus females, what are the different age groups I have, what are our turnover ratios? So, there is a lot of analytics, which has started happening in HR, which is something good because it helps management in taking the right decisions. This is something that I've seen happening a lot in lots of companies in this region, and it's getting better and better by the day.

Talking about HR, what are the three key changes you see happening over the next decade, Muhammad?

That's a really interesting question because evolution is happening all over us.

The requirements of the people are changing, organizations are changing, the way we used to work is changing, etc. Before the pandemic, how many of us would work from home? Everybody would come to work every day. During the pandemic, everybody was working from home. The needs of the workforce are changing, and people are adapting to the work-from-home model or a hybrid model. The expectations of the workforce are changing. We talk about the millennials a lot these days, and the difference between them and Gen X, and Gen Z. That's very true, expectations, and the environment around them are so different.

Everything is becoming so digital. You’re so much more aware of what's going on in your office while sitting in a coffee shop somewhere; compared to even just maybe five years ago. Going back to the time before the blackberries and all of these that came into being, the mobile phone was an amazing way to be able to keep connected. You're coming to work, somebody gives you a call, and you can answer the phone and say, “Hey, I'm on my way”

Now, you don't have to do that, sitting in your car, you can just switch on your mobile phone, and have a have a meeting; even if you have to write, just park on the side of the road, do whatever you have to do to and then drive off and come to work if you have to. The whole landscape is completely changing. The old practices, now are being replaced by a very digital workforce.

So, I think, that is something that is also going to change the HR model. I've been attending lots of different forums and events and places where we've been speaking about how you manage a digital workforce. How do you work? Manage your remote workers?It's great to be able to stay at home and work, but then, there is something just pros and cons, for everything; it is the same when it comes to remote workers. How do you manage your remote workers? How do you keep up with the expectations of your remote workers? The whole concept of HR, I expect is going to change, you are going to start working on policies and ways to ensure that you can live up to the expectations of a completely different workforce. I think this is going to be the most important part of it.

The other one and something we touched upon when we are talking about what I have seen in terms of the evolution of HR in the last 10-15, 20 years, I think the next step is very much going to be digitalization, so it's not just going to be less paper, it's going to be completely different ways of working. I'll give you a simple example; some time ago, we were thinking of some digital stuff that we wanted to do, and we were presented with a workflow. I was going through this workflow, and I was asking the guys, and I said, “Hey, but we are doing everything that we used to do, so how does that change work? How does that make sure that decision-making will be quicker? How does that make sure that we'll be better informed when we take a decision? How can we make sure that the bottlenecks will get out of the way?” This, I believe, is going to be the next big thing. How can you make sure that you make all the necessary changes so that decisions are made with you being better informed so that bottlenecks, hopefully through digitalization will be removed?

For example, if somebody's traveling doesn't matter, a decision can still be made. If somebody's out of the office, it doesn't matter, he can still come and join a discussion, give us inputs and insights, so that everybody else is aware of what this person's inputs are, and you can do things much faster and in a much more informed way. These I think, are going to be some fundamental changes which are going to happen.

On the other hand, I also believe conventional HR will probably become obsolete over time because I keep preaching this to my team, to the people I work with, and to the people I discuss with. The conventional way of everything being done on paper, on forums, and goes all the way to HR, and then somebody from HR checks it; I think that slows down the process. I believe, HR should be and will eventually become the responsibility of the functional head and is responsible for the people. HR will adopt a very business, partner role. HR will be there to support, to advise, but it will eventually very much change what it does. Maybe one day, you might may not even need an HR function because AI will eventually solve a lot of your problems, a lot of the stuff that otherwise today’s HR might be doing, I'm not saying HR will completely vanish, but it will probably come back in a different form, in a different way, with the support of a lot of RPA (Robotic Process Automation), and a lot of support from AI (Artificial Intelligence). That will probably make things look and feel completely different from what they have been for example when you and I would have seen it when we started working. This is how I see HR evolving and organizations in general.

The other day, I was talking to somebody and these guys have done a lot of research, into the meta-verse space. Interesting. You put on your fancy goggles, you can sit around, and have your discussions as if you are sitting across the table. Within our organization, about 10-12 years ago, we had something we called our teleconference room, we would be sitting on this side of the table, and somebody else would be sitting somewhere else on the other side of the table, and you have in your discussions, just like you're in the same room. A lot has been changing and I think a lot will change in this digital revolution, if I can call it, it has completely changed the way we work.

It will have a big impact in terms of how HR is going to perform its services, its support, and its partnering with the people that it has to work with.

Fascinating.

Diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) is a hot and controversial topic nowadays, for obvious reasons. I wanted to talk and hear your views on two of these topics.

One was, what’s been your personal experience of the effect of diversity, equity, and inclusion on important aspects like corporate team culture, employee engagement, and productivity in this region?

Interesting.

Diversity is something that I would say, to the Middle East, especially this part of the world where you and I live; this place is a case study when it comes to diversity.

How many companies have you come across where you wouldn't find 15- 20 nationalities working together, coming from all sorts of different places, different cultures, different languages, different beliefs, and different customs? The Middle East in general, and especially over here in Dubai, this place is the most diverse that I've ever come across. I've traveled to so many other places around the world, especially in my consulting days. We did lots of projects outside of the Middle East, but I haven't seen the kinds of diversity that you see here within the same department.

For example, 10 people are working there, and you might see 10 different nationalities. Diversity is very rich when it comes to Dubai, the Middle East, and the GCC especially.

In terms of equity, however, things are very interesting. I wouldn't say it is right or wrong, but it's very interesting for sure. I can share with you an example; an organization I work with on some projects and stuff, had five different payrolls and the payrolls were very much nationality-oriented.

If you were coming from North America, you would be on a different payroll. If you were coming from the Indian subcontinent, you would be on a different payroll. If you were coming from somewhere in the Far East, you would be on a different payroll, so that by itself, to me, it was kind of like, “but why?”

I'm sure there were good reasons for it as well. It's not like it was wrong, but it was part of the evolution process. When I shared this with somebody, I said, “when I came across this, I was very surprised”. He said, “Well, don't be” because this person was working on a project with somebody else, and they had 13 payrolls.

I think things have changed a lot. I've been out of consulting for many years, so I haven't seen it, but I do talk to friends who are working as consultants with different organizations; it's completely different. You will hardly come across anybody where there will be different payrolls. The concept of pay for the job, pay for the skill set, and pay for the person, is something that is very much practiced. But again, it's all an evolution process, slowly and gradually, things are getting better and better.

I'll give you another example. In the course of my career, one of the jobs I had was in the healthcare sector, and I had this question, where I was working for this huge complex, where we would do nursing recruitment. I asked the doctors one day and said, “it feels odd, why somebody from North America would get x amount, and somebody doing the same job, coming from the Far East would get x minus 50%?”

It doesn't make sense. And they said, “Well, it's interesting because the skill set which the guys from the US bring is very different from the skill set which the guys from the Far East would bring”. This payroll difference was a reflection of the skill set. That's a personal opinion, it was just misrepresented in terms of having different payrolls.

When we talk about reward, you can build a scale, and somebody coming from the Far East; could keep them at a slightly lower end of the scale, because their skill set is not up to the mark, compared to somebody who comes from Europe or North America. It would just send a message; we are equal in employment, and we recognize people for their skills, which was the case. It's also around communication, and how these things are perceived, but in general, in terms of diversity, in terms of equity, this region is doing amazingly well.

You also spoke about inclusion. When you look at all of these different people working in different organizations, I'm sure you would have witnessed, it creates lots of tribes within organizations or, within the community. For example, in Company X, you would have people working, and they're from one nationality, and there would be another nationality. It is very natural, that you feel a lot more comfortable working with people from your own, who speak the same language, who understand your culture, and who know what you're doing, and that naturally binds them together. At times, inclusion might be a challenge, but not necessarily. Organizational cultures play a big role. In positive cultures and positive organizational cultures, systems, policies, and protocols have been put into place so that everybody is allowed to contribute and perform at their best.

So, yeah, it's a very interesting question, and as you said, it's a very hot topic globally. If I could share with you, my experience, in terms of some of the challenges, that will help answer this question better. Sometimes, you would come across somebody in a meeting who would say, “we should have more inclusion or more diversity in terms of gender, which is great, but then I think the big question comes in terms of availability; what kind of talent is available?

When you look at Europe or North America, the availability of the female workforce makes it much easier to bring those people on board or compare that with the Middle East, you may not even have as many numbers available. So, do you just want to do this to tick a box? I would never recommend that. When there is the availability of talent, you should focus on trying to get as much equality and as much diversity as possible. If it is not available, then you are bound by the lack of availability itself. I find this place to be very rich in terms of diversity, in terms of equity, and terms of inclusion. On top of that, you will understand and agree that customs, culture, exposure to other customs, and exposure to other beliefs and theories play a big role. Especially over here in Dubai, we see, we are doing pretty well in all of these areas.

There’s a point, in every interview where we need to wrap up, and this has been an interesting one. Towards the end, I always like to ask my guests, what are their top tips. I would ask you the same question Muhammad, based on your experience in corporate, consulting, advising, and as well as getting people, what are the three top career tips you would give a senior executive who is either in leadership or aspiring to leadership?

Very interesting, thank you.

I would start by quoting the motto of the school that I went to, and it was perseverance, command, and success. It’s very interesting because you have to work hard, and you have to be consistent. For anybody, aspiring for anything in life, actually not just a leadership role, or not just to grow in their careers, I think what is most important is that we have to set realistic goals, and we have to remain consistent. It's so important. I was reading about a friend the other day, and how disciplined, he was in life. He mentioned that he reads for two hours every day. One of the most important things which I have come across is people who read, people who actually spend some time on their self-development, end up being the most knowledgeable, and the ones who are most knowledgeable, usually tend to grow faster, usually tend to go into positions which add more responsibility in terms of their positions. I think one of the most important things in life is to have realistic goals, and also to remain consistent and be very disciplined. So, that is number one.

On top of that, I can keep on growing myself. But I'm sure you would have heard and read, all of us at the beginning of our careers, we start off when we are dependent, and we need help from others, and then we learn and we become better at what we do, that is when we become independent. I can do whatever I have to, I don't need anybody's help anymore. We then transition into the phase where we become interdependent. So what I do affects others. At the same time, I have to get things done through others.

I sometimes come across people and say, “Hey, but I have to get A, B, and C done, why is it taking so long?” And you would hear this person saying, “I have to do this, and I have to do that”

I'm like, “Yeah, but why don't you delegate it to somebody and get it done?”

“Well, because, they won't do it, right, and I would have to redo it myself”.

The thing is, you have to allow them the opportunity to make a mistake, there's no harm in making a mistake. Our job as leaders is to make sure that others can grow, our job as leaders is we can help other people do what we may have done many years ago. It's a process where you have to help others grow, you have to delegate to them, you have to work through them, and you can't do everything by yourself. Just because you can do a few things doesn't really mean that you can do everything in the first place, and my opinion may not always be the best, so I have to listen to others, I have to work through them, I have to work with them, and I have to help them grow in their careers. This is something else, which I think we all as leaders and managers have to keep in mind.

The worst part is, what I've seen a lot of the times is, leaders tend not to make way for other people. You know, it's always helpful to let them grow, but it's also very helpful to make way for others to grow. It's not like you have to be at the top and stop others from growing. When it is your time to finish and go home, you should do that. I've seen people, especially over here; you're 65 years old, and you still want to keep on working, it's like come on, you've done your bit, you've played your innings, let somebody else come on to the pitch. Let them also play their innings, don't block them from growth, and don't block them from opportunity. Play your innings, play it well, and do your best while you're there.

Coming from a country where we're very fond of cricket, so I can always relate to it. So when you go on the pitch, do your best, and circumstances will be different for different people. You may score less than somebody else, but it doesn't matter, you did your best, and when your turn is over, pass on the baton to the next one, and then to the next one, because this is all part of life.

To all leaders, to all those aspiring for positions of leadership, I would say, number one; be realistic, remain consistent, be disciplined, and try to grow in whatever you're doing. Understand that it's everybody's right to be given opportunities. Grow other people, their growth is your growth. And when it is time to go, understand that it is time to go, move aside and let somebody else play.

That's a brilliant way to end this fascinating discussion, but it's not often that I have HR professionals on this interview, because, given my background and connections, most of my guests tend to come from the finance or investing background.

I think it is more interesting and insightful when I have someone with a very different background, that brings his unique perspective, both as an individual and also from an industry background as well.

I hope most listeners would benefit and would find it similarly interesting and insightful, especially the part about leadership and upskilling, and things like, knowing when to move on and helping others grow, which I think a lot of leaders need to learn, especially in this region. So very valid points.

Thank you for taking the time to prepare for this podcast and for spending this time with me, which I know is a late Friday evening, sitting in your office, so, I appreciate that. Thank you once again for sharing your insights, and wish you the best in your future endeavors.

Knowing me, we could have probably spoken for another few hours because there are so many stories to tell and so many things that I would be so happy to share, but again, I thank you for the opportunity to have this discussion. To all your viewers, if there's anything that can be of any assistance or any support to anybody, you're always welcome to reach out. I'm always more than happy to help and support people. This is how I see things in terms of sharing, in terms of helping, in terms of assisting others. It's always a pleasure by sharing, your share never goes down, it just keeps on getting better and bigger. Thank you so much.

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This podcast is brought to you by the real finance mentor. Thank you so much for listening and I really hope you found it insightful and inspirational. If you did enjoy this episode, please drop us a review and spread the word. You should check out more exclusive content on therealfinancementor.com and my LinkedIn profile which is: Binod Shankar, FCA, CFA. Let’s keep in touch! Just add your name to the mailing list on therealfinancementor.com, and we’ll tell you about new episodes plus book reviews, upcoming events and blogs. Till the next time, onwards and upwards.

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Podcast EpisodeBinod ShankarOctober 31, 2022podcast, investment banking, CFA, Wall StreetComment

Episode 40: Leadership takes courage

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