Episode 36: Focus on the next step.
A young man from very small-town India graduates from one of India’s top colleges. Then, unlike his peers, he does a 180 degree turn and walks away from a potentially lucrative corporate career, choosing his first love- the big mountains. He first cuts his teeth in guiding as an employee and then as an entrepreneur, co-founding a mountain guiding firm and taking clients to the peaks of challenging 7,000m peaks and thereby establishing a top brand in that space.
We talk of why corporate was never a choice, what he learnt as an employee that helped in entrepreneurship, what it takes to climb mountains, how to build mental fitness, confronting the real risk of death at high altitude, how he’s managed to recruit and retain some great guides, the pros and cons of his job and how he’s managed to avoid the mid-life crisis & stay excited despite 25 years at the same activity.
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Binod Shankar:
This is Binod Shankar and you’re listening to the real finance mentor podcast from the realfinancementor.com. The real finance mentor is your go-to resource for insight and inspiration on careers in finance, CFA and more. Now you might think, why this podcast? Well, my goal is to deliver insight and inspiration for your financial career, by making it, one: relatable. I mean this is not theoretical stuff. We zero-in on the critical, practical issues. Number two: authentic. No bullshit, no side-stepping. The topics, guests and questions are all from that perspective. And number three: insightful. Take a Chartered accountant and a CFA charter holder, add 17-plus years as a corporate warrior, mix in 10-plus years of entrepreneurship, throw in a decade of full time CFA training. Add speaking, mentoring, cycling, mountaineering and other endurance activities, and that’s me! Welcome to The Real Finance Mentor, or as I call it: RFM.
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Binod Shankar
Hi guys, this is Binod Shankar here, the real finance mentor with the latest episode of The Real finance Mentor Podcast, the podcast that brings insight, inspiration for your careers.
This is the next episode. And I've got a very special guest with me today. Special because he doesn't come from the field of finance or investing or stock markets, unlike the people we have on the show, but nevertheless, he'll bring tremendous insight and inspiration from a very different activity.
Let me introduce to you Avilash Bisht. Avilash, I've known him for the last, what, six years, seven years now. He grew up in a small town of Pauri in north India, which offers an incredible 180-degree view of snow-capped mountains of the Garhwal Himalayas. He then went for his further studies to Delhi, finished his university and then started mountain guiding.
Now Avilash has been guiding trips in the Himalayas since 1997. He has guided several mountaineers successfully to summits of Mount Satopanth, Mount Kun, Kedar Dome, Sudarshan Parvath, Bandarpoonch, Gangotri 1, CCK and Kang Yatze, Dzo Jongo, Stok Kangri, Mentok Kangri, Kilimanjaro, Elbrus, Aconcagua, and many more lesser mountains. These names that I rolled out to you of course be very familiar to experienced hikers and Mountaineers and not so familiar to other people probably.
He's a highly experienced climbing instructor, and has designed and executed numerous outdoor training programs. He's trained in mountain search and rescue, and he's also led a couple of life saving rescue operations. Avilash is a seasoned river guide apart from being a mountaineer. He’s guided trips on most of the commercial multi day river runs in India including the Zanskar, Ganga, Bhagirathi, Alaknanda, Tons, Sutlej, and the Kali.
Avilash, of course, had a stint in corporate life before setting up his own shop. He's the co-founder and he runs white magic adventures, which is a New Delhi based firm that specializes in mountain guiding in the Himalayas.
Avilash, warm welcome to the podcast.
Avilash:
Thank you Binod, thank you.
Binod:
So, let me start from something that I saw in your bio and I found it very interesting. Because you completed a bachelor's in science in ‘97, from St. Stephen's College in Delhi. I looked at the college and everyone knows this college. It is ranked eighth among colleges in India and it's ranked second among art colleges and third among science colleges. It's also notoriously difficult to get into, as it receives around 30,000 applications, for what, 400 seats every year? The incredible low admission rate of about 1.3% or something like that. And alumni of this college are distinguished economists, CEOs, scientists, mathematicians, historians, bureaucrats, etc, etc.
Now, my question is, with this education pedigree, I assume you could have easily landed a safe, well-paying job in a plush office, with a big company in India. What on earth convinced you to turn away from all that and focus on the very different career of mountaineering?
Avilash:
So, A, I think I was a bit lucky to get into that big a college. I was good in academics, I could score marks. There was an interview, the interview went well, and I got in. So, that's how it is. I wasn't maybe, really cut out to become one of those distinguished personalities.
However, to answer your question, when I was getting out of college, I wasn't really looking for a very safe, well-paying career. So, at that time, I think, I was really questioning myself and wanted to figure out what I should be doing? So, I think in college, I used to do rock climbing. In college, we were supposed to join a couple of clubs and societies, and every student getting admission there was asked to choose two of those, and I chose hiking club as one of the clubs and I started rock climbing with students from the college.
Having grown up in the hills, I thought I should be quite good at it, and when we used to go for treks, I found again that I was better than most people when we were out trekking. I was also enjoying it quite a lot. So, for those three years when I was in college, that was my hobby, and which I enjoyed a lot. It also, I think, gave me a sort of an identity, I guess, in those days.
So, when I was passing out of college, everyone those days were doing an MBA. CAT ( ed-the Common Admissions Test) used to be the popular examination for which people would appear. I also appeared for that exam, but I never prepared for it. I was just trying to buy more time because my parents kept asking me what’s next, what’s next? So, I guess, when I really had to decide, I was quite confused. And I see a lot of people, youngsters…I think it's quite natural to think a lot as to what you want to do and you have so many choices. In those days there weren’t so many choices. I really questioned myself deep within, and I was quite sure that I don't want to do a desk job, my calling was for being in the outdoors.
So, I was lucky to meet an environmentalist that time- Dr Sridhar, who runs an NGO (Non Governmental Organisation) in Dehradun. I thought I’ll work with him. I wanted to do some environmental science and I thought maybe that will give me the chance to be out in the outdoors. But yeah, those days, the NGO wasn't getting enough funding and there weren't enough projects and again, I was kind of restricted to more textbook sort of a learning, not really hands on, which I had come for, but I was still there.
And then I met a photographer- Tribhuvan Chauhan. He was a well-known photographer in those days of film cameras; very popular in Uttarakhand. A lot of big posters for the government tourism office were his photographs. So, it was his passion. He would go out into the wild and do landscape photography. And once he was showing me some prints from one of his latest trips out in the mountains, and when I looked at those pictures, I felt I was really craving for all that. He was trying to set up a trekking business in those days to actually sustain his passion of photography. And when he told me this, I just said that “Can I join you”? And he said, “Yeah, why not”? And I just jumped in. So, that was just a call like thing, just out of the heart at that time; and I didn't think too much about it, I just jumped in, and that's how it happened.
Binod:
So, Avilash, I noticed that you didn't immediately start your business after graduation, because you worked for about eight years with another company Aquaterra adventures, as mountain and river guide. And before that, you were a freelance outdoor instructor and mountain guide. So, many of my listeners are employees in the finance sector who wish to become entrepreneurs. So, I have a few questions here. The first question is, what are the three triggers that made you switch to entrepreneurship from being an employee?
Avilash:
So, I think I wasn't really ever, I still am not really cut out to be a businessman. And I think, if I look back, there wasn't one trigger as such. Normally, people say that something happens, that a switch gets pressed and something happens. It wasn't like that. Since my early days of working, wherever I worked, I was always involved in the business a lot. When I worked with the Aquaterra, there also I was overseeing the trekking part of the business. And I was very much part of the top management team which runs and executes the business.
However, I never, ever thought that I would actually start a business on my own. It was only after working for many years when I was there. When the business was expanding, it started expanding in all sorts of directions. And you being one of the senior staff, you were also kind of getting stretched everywhere, and there were some management issues as the business was growing, which naturally happens everywhere, and you're trying to resolve some management issues which we could not.
And then finally, I think the most logical decision for me at that stage was to move out of the business and try and do something through which I could pursue my own passion about mountaineering and fulfil those dreams.
Binod:
So, I left my corporate life as you did as well, and then started my own training business, which I co-founded and led. But I found that my corporate life equipped me in many ways for the life of entrepreneurship. So, what are the top three benefits in terms of skills or assets, like network or wealth, that you picked up as an employee, that later helped you to start and run White Magic Adventures successfully?
Avilash:
So, I think my stint at Aquaterra wasn't really sort of a corporate stint. We did do all sorts of things. So, I was primarily a guide. And when you look at a job of a guide, you're supposed to be out in the mountains, out in the rivers. The reality is that it doesn't happen all the time. There are periods when you are not doing this activity. And what do you do then? Most guides, I've noticed, are quite shy. They're very comfortable in their own zone about guiding, which is great. But for me, whenever I didn't have enough work in the field, I would be in the office. I would see what's going on, and then try and contribute to the business in whatever capacity I could. Right since my early days, I would want to be involved with things. And I guess that kind of attitude helped me in the long run, because I could learn a lot beyond guiding. I was involved in operations, I was involved in logistics I was involved in pretty much everything, and you learn a lot.
If there's something which you don't know, you ask people. If that curiosity is there, people will answer and you will know. Simple things…like taxation and finance are a very complicated thing for a lot of people, it was for me as well. I never understood, and I always used to say, all this is rubbish, I don't need to really know about all this, it's not my thing. But when you start (a business), you had to understand what is VAT (in those days) or what is a sales tax? Why are we being charged a service tax instead of a VAT, or instead of something else?
So, things like these, those questions kept coming up and you would then seek answers, and you would get answers. So, I was fortunate that wherever I worked, the environment was good for learning. Whenever I would question, no one would not answer me. People would explain to me things in depth and I picked up things. In the long run, I guess that all those things put together, really helped me when I had to start a business of my own.
Binod:
The last time we had a chat, you said something…you touched upon something else which you liked and which you probably picked up, which is about key relationships with people. Can you expand on that?
Avilash:
Key relationships with people- yes. So, when you start working…ours is a very people's business. We interact with a lot of people, all kinds of people, and slowly we develop a reputation of our own- be it the fellow guides, be it clients, be it your vendors, transporters; I feel that this job of mountain guiding is a bit like a job of a doctor. You have to understand the patient very well. So, when we look at clients we have to understand what they're capable of, what their expectations are, what their weaknesses are. And then when we go out in the mountains, it's great- that relationship.
So, a lot of people, if they go out for adventure, they want to go with same set of guides, again, once they're comfortable with them. So, those kinds of relationships keep building when you start working, when you work with people. I've been lucky to meet a lot of people who are now great friends, on trips. And it keeps growing all the time. Whenever you go out, you meet new people, you go for a new experience, you do something together, you come back, and it's that you come back with a new relationship, and some of those relationships last really long. So, I have I answered your question?
Binod:
Thank you sir. More than adequately, absolutely! Thank you so much! So, let's talk about something very controversial and very exotic in a way, which is risk management in mountaineering. So, I Googled you, and I saw that you were a speaker for the meet on risk management organized in March 2020, by the Indian Mountaineering Federation, IMF (not to be confused with the International Monetary Fund, IMF). Your topic was choosing participants for a commercial trip. What are the top reasons apart from uncontrollable objective risks like avalanche and deep snow in bad weather? Why some people don't make it to the summit?
Avilash:
Ah, so it's a tough question. Of course, if we're looking at just things which are inside your control…I mean, a lot can go wrong which is not in your control, like weather and objective dangers.
But if you look at subjective things, and why people don't really make it, I think one big reason is that is that some people come unprepared, so they don't really know what they're getting into. Sometimes by fluke you can kind of still manage it, if everything turned out, well, the weather was good, the conditions were not really tough and you did it once. It's important to be very well prepared. Preparation is the key. So, I guess that is one big differentiator amongst people who make it to the top and people who don't.
The other thing is that some people naturally I feel are a bit risk averse. Whenever things get risky, they like to kind of get away from it. Whereas for some people it is more of an attitude thing. Some people actually enjoy situations like these, when it's risky, and things are not really going as per the plan. What to do? You can make out. So, I think on some days it's a natural thing, if it's not in you, it's not in you. So, that also happens I feel, sometimes.
Also, I think sometimes it is about the way you approach the mountain, the objective. And a lot of times these days, I notice that there is a big ego about climbing these big mountains. You would have heard a lot of people, they say “I conquered so and so mountain”. So, you always conquer yourself. You never conquer a mountain.
So, when you come very physically prepared, you feel you're really strong, you go head up to the mountain thinking that, “yeah, I'm strong and I can really conquer this mountain”, that ego also sometimes…What happens is, mountains are huge. These Himalayan mountains- it's not easy to fight them. And sometimes if you go with that kind of an attitude, you tire yourself out before the real summit, because every day you're thinking that the harder you work, the better the result would be. So, I guess that also happens sometimes. So, I think it has to be that the approach has to be slightly different. If you go out there to enjoy whatever the mountains, whatever the conditions offer you, and if there isn't that ego, you enjoy your climb much better.
You're also in a much nicer rhythm about the whole climate, and that sometimes is missing. And sometimes there are issues related to the operators, the guides, and all of that which again, you don't have any control on.
Binod:
That neatly segues to my next question, because I recall you repeatedly telling me over the past few months, that preparing for a mountaineering expedition is 40% physical and 60% mental. Although for some strange reason, my mind is other way around with more emphasis on physical and less emphasis on mental. What exactly do you mean when you say it's 60% mental, and what are the specific traits or skills that you would like to see or you're looking for, to assess mental strength in a client?
Avilash:
When I say, mental strength, so these days, what is quite common to notice is that when people come for these climbs, or people are doing these kind of sport, they train a lot. So, you have people doing marathons, running, they're doing mountain biking, or a lot of physical activities, which is great- to have that consciousness about being physically fit, being physically tough. But a lot of those people, when I see them in the mountains, that kind of fitness doesn't necessarily translate into how well you can climb on a mountain for multiple reasons.
It is a different sport. So, you need to play it with a different set of rules, if I can say that. So, Marathon is a sport in itself, a mountaineer can never be good at Marathon. So, you’ll have to train like a marathoner to become a marathoner. Similarly, if you've been running a lot, if you've been doing a lot of mountain biking, (it) doesn't necessarily mean that you will be able to (be a) mountaineer.
So, a lot of times, these people approach the mountain with the thinking that, “okay, I've done a lot of physical training, and now I'll, I'll crack it”. And when they're not able to crack it, it dissipates. And then it becomes mentally very hard. It's a big agony that, “oh, I've done so much physically, I've prepared so much for this and I can't do it”. So, that's when your mental makeup comes in. So, when I say people have to be mentally strong, it's hard to first of all to assess who's mentally strong and who's not.
And you can only figure it out when you go out climbing with people. That's when you know how well this person can break down. But when I'm saying about mental fitness, it's about people who, when put into really tough situations, they're still the same, their personality is still the same, the personality doesn't change, and that is more of, again, it's more of your character. It's more about your attitude towards things. So, that's very important. As a mountaineer, you'll end up getting into really tough situations- when it's really cold, the weather is bad, you are wet inside, you're completely out in the wild with no comfort at all. So, at that time, it's more of your mind which comes into the picture, where you say, “No, I'll keep going, I'll keep going. I'll keep going”, rather than some people who say, “no, I just cannot do this. This is too tough for me”. So, it's something like that.
Binod:
Listening to the answer to this question, as well as what you said previously, and the conversations we've had, Avilash, over the last months and years, it seems to my mind, that there are three or four things.
1) People who are not fazed by simple things, in terms of bad weather, illness, lack of good food, comforts of normal life or performance of other people in the group, that can drag them behind.
2) People who are comfortable in their own self, like you said, not burdened by the huge ego, and not trying to prove something, but people who probably just come to enjoy the wildlife and the journey.
3) People who are patient and calm and relaxed, even in really tough situations.
4) And of course, very importantly, people who don't give up easily, don't turn back at the slightest sign of problems, and they really find the energy to take that next step rather than say, “I give up, and I had enough”.
So, how do you assess this? And physical fitness is easier to assess; you can ask someone how long it takes for him or her to run five kilometres or climb X number of flights of stairs. But mental fitness is quite different. So, I have two questions. How do we assess mental fitness for mountaineering?
Avilash:
So, as I said, a lot of our customers are repeat customers. We've done enough with them and that's when we understand what their mental makeup is, and that's how we advise the next hike to them. Every time you are trying to push the bar further. And that this person was capable of doing this, “okay, next time, maybe this would be a good adventure for you”. So that is one. But for people who haven't really climbed with us, I think a little bit of talking is important. I personally like to talk with everyone who comes on these climbs, the mountaineering trips. Our job as guides, is to give as much information as we can, about the mountain, also, about the kind of conditions you are going to face.
Once you speak to them, it gives us a fair idea about what this person's ideas are, in some sense. So, we like to explain what's going to happen on the trip. We'd like to give as much information as we can about the route, about the conditions we can face, and then expect them to be asking us questions about the climb. And that's when we realize that this person was really serious or not, or if he has that experience or not. We also like to know the experience of the person- what all has he climbed? When did he climb it? Who did he climb it with? How far did he reach? And the answers to all that would give us some sense about this person's capabilities. So, that's how we can understand.
Binod:
So that's about assessing mental fitness. But my next question was, how does one build mental fitness for mountaineering?
Avilash:
There is no better way to build, whatever fitness- physical or mental fitness, without actually doing it. So, the best way, they say, to do, is if you want to be a mountaineer, you have to climb, you have to keep climbing, and you become better and better at it. However, mountaineering is not so easy, you cannot spare that many days all the time, doing it. And mountains are not easily accessible to all. So, physical part, yes, you can train, you can do your cardio, you can do your core strengthening exercises and all of that; mental strength- how do you build? Yeah, it’s a good question.
So, I think it's because, as I said earlier, it's more of a mind thing. How you look at things? When things are tough, how do you behave? Do you escape from tough situations or not? Do you enjoy the tough situations? It is a mental thing, and it's hard to change the attitude. I don't think it will be easy for anyone to say, “Okay, no, I don't enjoy it. But tomorrow onwards, I'll start enjoying it”. It's not easy. However, you could still, I guess, try and do even when you are physically training, towards the end of it, if you don't give up, you have a certain goal, “I want to get till here”. You get there and it’s fine, you don't get there, you break down.
So, when I talk about mental fitness, again, there is a sort of a preparation, which is required, preparation is the key. There is physical preparation, and then there is mental preparation. You have to visualize the whole climb, what you're going to do, and then have a strategy as to how you're going to approach the tough sections. You should try and understand what all can go wrong. If this goes wrong, if the weather goes wrong, are you prepared for it or not? Things like that. Also try and gain as much of experience and skill as you can even in that setting, wherever you are. You can these days go climbing on indoor walls.
Skill is important. Experience, if not on big mountains, you can't go off in the big mountains, but you have to do some sort of similar activity. Trekking in the outdoors, where it can be hot, where it can rain, where it can get cold, things like that. Do that. Do the real stuff.
Also, whenever you can get a chance, whenever you're out, if you are out of your comfort zone, don't escape such a situation, get into it. Don't shy away from things like that. Whenever things are hard, you have to deal with it.
Binod:
I think something else that's probably useful was to try and visualize the climb and have a strategy.
Avilash:
Yeah. Yes, I admit that.
Binod:
As in, imagine conditions to be tough for bad weather, snow, or ice conditions and expect it to happen; having a strategy for how to overcome it, I suppose, also helps.
Now, sticking to this very strange and, interesting sport of mountaineering, it's a high-risk activity, right? And you're only human, and surely the thought of death, or serious injury must have crossed your mind on a few occasions before or during a climb. You're not an old man. I hesitate to ask you your age, but you have many more productive years to live, years that can be abruptly cut short by a disaster, as has happened to many veteran mountaineers as you and I know.
Now this fear can be paralyzing or can make you commit stupid mistakes. You have climbed many mountains, how have you dealt with that fear?
Avilash:
So, I share a deep love for the mountains. There's a lot of love and respect I have for the mountains. And I have this very strong conviction that I'm not going to die in the mountains, so it is a sort of a mutual thing. I care a lot about the mountains, I love them. I know, the mountains are not going to do anything wrong to me. So, I don't go to the mountains thinking…that thought never crosses my mind. I feel when I'm out, driving on the roads, crossing the street- that is more dangerous than being out in the mountains. So that's never a thought.
But yes, you do get into situations which are tough, and you get scared, there is fear. And what do you do then? With time you learn to understand your fears better. There's nothing wrong with having some fear, it's actually a good thing because when you get scared, all your senses are alive, you're actually focusing a lot on what you're doing, you're completely engrossed in what you're doing, and that's what adventure is all about! You want to get into situations where you can be completely into the thing, and not be worried about anything else. These activities give you that chance to be able to do that. But yes, the fear is there, what you're doing…you know you can fall, you can slip, you can break a bone. You’ve got to understand the fear and then you’ve got to manage your fear. You have to understand where you go overboard, if you can manage it or not. If it's getting really tough, if you want to, you can stop.
Binod:
Talking about tough, this is a question, I think I’ve asked before, and you neatly dodged that on many occasions. But I have to ask, given your extensive track record, and the fearsome summits, at least in my mind that you have got to the top of. What is your toughest, most successful climb to date? And, more importantly, why was it so difficult?
Avilash:
So, I don't like to look at a climb as the toughest climb, or the best climb and things like that. There are tough moments on trips, there are beautiful moments on a trip, and all of it can happen in the same trip. But still, I think, to answer your question, one of the toughest climbs, I guess, was Satopanth a few years ago, in 2018.
So, there was a big snowstorm and we lost a lot of time on the mountain. We had three teams trying to climb the mountain at the same time. It was us, an Army team and then there was a Swiss team. We got caught in a bad snowstorm. There were a lot of ropes and everything on the route was set, till about the summit camp, and all those ropes, all the equipment got buried under the snow. Each team was trying to figure out what to do. There wasn't really enough time left on the climb to be able to do it, because initially when the weather cleared, there were avalanche conditions. We lost time, we were not being able to move well.
Eventually, we discussed with the Swiss team, and the Army team and thought the only way it is possible to climb the mountain would be if we combined forces. If all the groups kind of worked together and then try and climb the mountain. So, all the Sherpas, all the support staff came together and we set up the root on the mountain again, in snow. It was a lot of hard work for everyone. Also, towards the end, the weather started turning bad again, it started getting very cold and windy. I remember, that summit night was a really cold night, very windy and very hard one for everyone.
You have to take a lot of decisions in situations like that; what time do you leave? Do you know how the weather is going to behave? At that time, we were against leaving early and felt that we should leave a little later, so that we are not really exposed to the cold for a long period of time. Most groups were leaving around 11, midnight; I think we left around 3 am.
That was a good strategy, because we were cold but we could somehow bear the cold till the sun started coming out. Whereas, the other teams were quite cold and exposed to the cold for a long period. Finally, when the sun was out, the situation did get better. We, finally made it to the summit. Each one of us did. By then, we'd lost so much of time. I think, the plan was to come back to the summit camp and next day we come back down to the base camp. And, in one day, all the way back from the base camp to Gangotri. So, we really stretched it as much as we could. And I think it was that last opportunity for us. We kept waiting, kept waiting, kept waiting till that last opportunity. We climbed the mountain and then rushed back from the mountain.
So, I guess, it was great, in the sense, that we kept waiting. We could’ve easily said…As a leader I could have easily said, “boss, it’s looking tough. We can’t do it”, because it wasn't really seeming that anyone could do it. But, I think that kind of patience helped us. It was really tough. I remember, I got so cold that I got frostbite on my cheek. I thought the Frostbites are only on toes, fingers, and nose. But, it was so windy, that I had a scar here for a few weeks. So, that is one memory of a tough climb.
Then, as I said, there are tough moments. Early on in my career, I used to work as a rock climbing instructor, and there was this incident where we were supposed to set up the ropes on this one rock face, where we were doing this activity for kids who come for summer camps. And, on the way to this rock face, we were going through a pine forest. In the summers, you have these pine needles which are very slippery to walk on, in the pine forest. I don’t know what happened, but this fellow instructor was with me, Raj- he slipped and he actually fell off the slope, fell off the mountain. It was overhanging and I just heard him when I was on the top of the rock face; he was approaching the rock face. I could see where he was going to go because he was overhanging on the rock. The scene when he was falling is quite vivid in my memory. I could see the whole body come down, he had some rope with him, all of it coming down. Where he landed, I could not see, but I rushed to him and I found him in really bad shape.
He was completely twisted. Luckily, he wasn't bleeding a lot but he was all swollen up and in a very bad situation. So, I had to rush down, send the message that the activity is cancelled, and we had to call for some more support- more people from camp. We had to bring him back to the hospital, and then from one hospital to another, because the hospital was in a very remote area and the hospitals didn't have any power, there was no X-ray happening and things like those. We to kept moving him from one hospital to the other hospital. I think it took us almost 24 hours or more to bring him down, till we got him down to Chandigarh. This was in Himachal, from Himachal to Chandigarh and then from Chandigarh to Delhi eventually.
So, this was a very hard time, you take a lot of decisions. I had done my wilderness first aid training and I knew a few things. But, in a situation like this, you have to take a lot of decisions and you don't know if it's right or wrong. Fortunately, he was bedridden for a long period, but he could come out of it. He had some fractures on his spine, shoulder dislocation, hip dislocation, but he survived. So, it was a very tough moment and things like these are tough.
Binod:
Let's leave the cold, thin air, and the unforgiving mountains and frozen toes for a moment, because I'm curious about how you run the company, White Magic.
The company seems to have a good reputation as an expedition operator. I know, because I've been involved in hiking and mountaineering for some years. I've also seen some online comments. Plus, you've been rated 4.9 on Google reviews by nearly 100 clients so far. This is a fairly reliable sample size, and most of the reviewers on Google gave five-star ratings.
Now from all of the reviews, all of which I enjoyed reading by the way; your team members’ names which I saw were, Sanjeev Rai, Nitesh, Inder, Pawan, Tashi, Shekhar Singh, Nima Sherpa, repeatedly come for special mention for their excellent attitude and skills and, to quote some of the reviewers, “going for above and beyond”.
Now, you're the co-founder and the key man at White Magic. Such employee performance, from my experience in corporate and my experience in co-founding and leading my company, must be the result of a unique corporate culture. My question is, what are the elements of the culture of White Magic that attracts and equally importantly, retains quality talent?
Avilash:
As I said, our business is like a people's business. We deal with a lot of people. And when I say ‘people's business’, I don't want to limit it to the client-side of things. You meet a lot of people, a lot of clients, and you also meet and work with a lot of people at the back end, which is your team, which are your vendors, your service providers.
As a business, since our early days, we've been very clear that we want to take care of both sets of people. It should not be the way that you take more care of your clients and less care for your own people. It does happen sometimes, you start ignoring them. But the moment you start doing that, we as a business, start getting uncomfortable. So, we have to take good care of our team.
When I say good care, it is easier to say that you take good care. But, in terms of business, one of the downsides of capitalism is that, the businesses naturally have to be exploitative to be able to make more profits. When you see people, you see other businesses and how they make money, it's always easy to exploit your people and make a little more than what is possible. And I see a lot of businesses, that keep doing it all the time. And when that happens, I don't think people who are there, working in that kind of an environment, they would last for long.
In our business, everyone knows it very clearly that we don't exploit anyone, because when our team, when our guides go out, they have to pay the porters. The message is very clear that don’t ever cut down what anyone’s due is, or cut money. Give as much as you can and keep them happy. Everyone understands that very well. So, that is an important thing.
We look at our team more like a family, we have to take care of each other. Even during COVID, and I'm quite proud to say that our business was able to take care of every individual who worked with us and be a full-time employee or an employee on contract. We looked out for everyone. In terms of work culture, we are very informal and friendly. Everyone's professional, everyone is their own boss, and we are all very equal, and everyone knows it.
A lot of it emanates from what we do. When we go out in the field, each human’s life is equal, you can't say that this one is superior to the other one. It doesn't work like that. You can yourself be the boss of the company, but in a tough situation, it is someone who is way down the ladder, somewhere low below, who will come and put his life at risk to be able to help you, to be able to do something for you. So, it does not matter who you are. There's no social stigma. You cannot hide your emotions.
Everyone needs to be what they are because as outdoor professionals, we all have this kind of characteristic, and it is appreciated. This is the culture we’d like to have in the company- everyone is equal, you do what you can do, you do your best. That's how it is.
Binod:
Remarkable.
Many people in corporate life, Avilash, feel stuck and stagnant after, say 15-20 years of working. By the time they hit their mid to late 30s, many feel they have stopped learning and the work isn't as exciting. But of course, they have to pay the bills. So, they continue to work, delivering average performance. I call this the midlife crisis. And I've seen it so many times, my former students and mentees and clients and colleagues.
You have been in mountaineering for close to 25 years, but it appears to me that you've escaped this crisis of stagnation, you're doing quite well and you also seem to enjoy your job. Granted, of course, that you own the business, so the rewards are slightly different. But a quarter-century in the same field is quite a long time. What are the key reasons for your longevity and satisfaction?
Avilash:
It is the love and passion for what I do, so that helps.
When things are hard and if you like something a lot, it actually helps you get out of a tough situation, and I think that has helped me sustain this. That's the most important aspect, I think.
Other than that, I’ve got a lot of support from my wife, so that also I think is important. She's from the corporate sector, she had a good job. And, very early-on in our relationship, we discussed my and her career, and I think it was very clear to both of us that if at all someone has to change a career, it will be her, because I could not look for an alternate career. I'd be miserable at any other job, but she kind of understood all that, and she accepted it. She did make sacrifices at her end, whenever it was required, which is really commendable. You have to have that support to be able to do enough for your own career. So, I had that support, that complete unconditional support from my wife throughout.
Other than that, I think, I was also a bit lucky in terms of the timing. When I say timing, I mean the timing about the whole adventure-travel space for growing. When I got into this, those days, very few people would do all this. It really boomed in the last I would say, 10 to 20 years. I had a lot of opportunities, I could do this, I could do rock climbing, river rafting, mountaineering, and still earn a decent living for myself.
Now, I feel that this space is also getting saturated. I see a lot of boys who set up businesses now, and it's not so easy to survive in the current environment, because it's quite saturated with this cutthroat competition. In that sense, I think I was lucky.
Binod:
What are the things you love about your job, Avilash, as a co-founder of White Magic, and of course, as a mountaineering expedition leader, as every job has its pros and cons, it’s the good, the bad and the ugly. What are the three activities related to your job that you would rather do without?
Avilash:
As a co-founder…I mean it's a great job. It’s a great thing to be the founder of the business. You can call all the shots and do whatever…I guess, the good thing is that it's your job to shape the future of the business, and you have to constantly do that. I think, that is a nice thing.
Also, you have a lot of say in how you want to shape the future and you have these discussions where you're constantly doing that, and that's a good part.
It is also a very dynamic sort of a thing where you wake up every morning and you have like, “Okay, there’s this problem and then there’s this problem and then there’s this problem…”, and then you keep solving those problems and you don't even realize how the whole day is gone. I mean if you would have a set job, I would find that very boring. But I kind of like it when I’m constantly on my toes. So, that’s nice.
Then, yes, you have to keep your team motivated, you have to lead by example in tough situations, which I feel is important. So, these are all good things as a co-founder.
As a mountaineer, yes, there are a lot of good things. That’s actually a better part of my job to do, like mountain guiding- it's the most exciting part of my job. I love to work with people, and when I say people, it’s all kinds of people like our clients, people at the back end, the porters, the cooks, and the support team. You meet a lot of interesting people- it is the drivers, and you get an opportunity to travel in such remote areas and experience not only the natural beauty of the places but also the kind of people who live there, and interact with them, understand how they look at things. At the same time, the clients, they’re people who come from such faraway corners of the world, which I would have never heard of. There are some names you don’t know where these people come from. These people talk about their place, it seems that you get the chance to actually travel that part of the world, when you listen to their stories, so I like it. And then as a job of a guide, it becomes your job to make that bridge between two ends of the spectrum- the people who are the clients and the people who are the back end, and you are the mediator. You have to ensure that everyone is having a good time, everyone is enjoying it. So that is great.
As a co-founder, I think, maybe what I said was the good part. Sometimes what also becomes a not-so-good part is that it is just constant, it never stops and this problem solving is always there. Sometimes, you need a break, you want to switch off, but it's hard to switch off, because you are expected to be on top of everything, all the time. So, other than that, I think, it's more or less okay.
As a mountain guide, I think the tough part is that (especially now since I have a son who's growing) when you go out on expeditions, (also we have busy seasons…so we keep traveling a lot during seasons) you miss out on some family time, sometimes. I understand it's a part of our job and in a lot of other jobs people stay far away from their families. Here we are completely disconnected, we don't know what's going on, if at all they need help, we are just not accessible. It is like a very delicate balance- of work and family life. As I said earlier, I've been lucky to have a very supportive wife, who understands what the nature of my job is, and she doesn't expect a lot. In times like these, in family situations, if I'm required, she takes care of things.
Binod:
So, Avilash, you and White Magic have come a long way in the past few years. The natural, next question is, what is next for White Magic? And, what are your personal goals here?
Avilash:
There's a lot of planning which keeps happening for the future. I think, we need some focus there. The drive for us has always has been that, you do stuff which is authentic, which is bold- that kind of adventure and not just the touristy kind of adventure. COVID was a big disruption, it kind of disrupted our ideas at that time and now I think, in the future, you will see quite a few new trips coming. Trips which are very far away from the madding crowds. We want to do more exploratory stuff.
Other than that, we are also doing some sort of experiment with the whole business structure, somehow trying to shift more towards an employee-owned kind of a business model. So, let's see how far we get with that.
As far as my personal goals are concerned, I don't have any major personal goals. I think what's important for me now…I live in Dehradun and our son goes to a school here in Dehradun, and maybe later on I would probably like to move a little higher in the hills. I would personally like to do some explorations for myself, the travel side of things.
Binod:
Interesting. I like the part about you exploring other adventures which are bold and authentic, and not as touristy. It's always nice to get off the beaten track and be where a few people have been before, something unique, tough, yet exciting. So, looking forward to getting updates from you on those lines.
We have now come regretfully to the end of this very fascinating discussion. What are your three mantras for success in life?
Avilash:
That's a tough question. Everyone has their own definition about success, and success is a very relative thing. You have to find your own success, have your definition for success, and then find it. I think, what I would rather say is from some of my learnings and whatever little I've done, as you requested. I like to relate- when you are climbing, there's a lot of thinking that keeps going on in your mind, and whenever I am out in the mountains, I try and get into the sort of a meditative zone, which I really enjoy a lot.
And at that time…I mean, there is a lot of philosophy in the mountains, which is why I think, in the early days, the sages, the Rishis, the Sadhus would go head up to the Himalayas, because that's where the wisdom is. And we are lucky to get to travel to these mountains as a job, to get to do that. It becomes a little philosophical and a lot of things get into your head, and then you correlate it to your actual life. I like to take those learnings from the mountains, and then apply them to my normal life. It's hard, it's easy to say that, but it somehow has helped me a lot.
A lot of times, I see that people are complaining about things they don't have. In the mountains, when we are climbing up, I see clients who keep asking, “how far?”. They are looking up, and they are not getting there. They're always getting bogged down by wanting to get to the top. And at that time, we tell them to just look down and see how far they’ve come, and if they ever looked down, then that's when they get surprised and feel happy about how far they have come. In our day-to-day lives, I think it's good to look back and see how far you've come. I think most people are doing way better than what they used to be, and we have to find satisfaction, that is one takeaway.
Then, I think it's really important to have some sort of a rhythm about things. In mountaineering, it helps a lot. If you're in your rhythm, you enjoy your climb, it's not so strenuous and you don't get as exhausted, the whole experience is much nicer. Similarly, in life, it's hard for me also, as I said, “it’s easier to be said than done”. One of my personal goals is trying to find a rhythm in my life- what you're doing, your own identity. Sometimes we are trying to do too many things. So, it's better to do less, but do something which is in a rhythm which you can enjoy. That's about it.
Binod:
So, if I was to summarize, don't look up, and get nervous. Instead, look down, and be grateful and happy at how far you've come.
The second would be, to focus on the next step, and forget everything else.
And thirdly, last, but not least- try and find your rhythm and enjoy it.
Thank you, Avilash, for this wonderful interview. I know it's been a struggle, trying to pin you down and get the right times over the last couple of months because you have multiple responsibilities as an expedition leader, business owner, and a family man. You are being in the mountains trekking and mountaineering. But finally, I'm delighted that I was able to piece together this insightful and powerful interview, because it's the first time I'm interviewing a mountaineer or a sportsman too, in other words, and that unique perspective that someone like that brings to life, career, wellness- mental and physical wellness, are quite interesting, which we've already talked about during this podcast.
So, thank you for taking the time and going through the questions and iterating the script many, many times, and I look forward to seeing you on the trail in the next few months.
Avilash:
Thank you so much Binod, Thank you.
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