Episode 33: You define your success.
Senior professionals bring a wealth of experience and insight and that’s what Pascale does in this interview.
Every RFM episode dives deep and No 33 isn’t an exception. We talk about the effect of her upbringing, her role models, the impact of working overseas, why she chose product sales over CFA and portfolio management, how to juggle work and raising two kids, gender discrimination at work, the imposter syndrome (and how to tackle it), her best and worst hires (and why) and career tips for those in early career stage. Pascale and I both are focused on health and fitness and she shares details, challenges and tips relating to her recent wellness journey.
She comes across as patient, non-judgmental and super calm-all traits Yours Truly wishes he could emulate! -and it was so easy to deal with her.
Listen, learn, grow.
You can check the entire video episode on youtube or enjoy reading the transcript below.
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Binod Shankar:
This is Binod Shankar and you’re listening to the real finance mentor podcast from the realfinancementor.com. The real finance mentor is your go-to resource for insight and inspiration on careers in finance, CFA and more. Now you might think, why this podcast? Well, my goal is to deliver insight and inspiration for your financial career, by making it, one: relatable. I mean this is not theoretical stuff. We zero-in on the critical, practical issues. Number two: authentic. No bullshit, no side-stepping. The topics, guests and questions are all from that perspective. And number three: insightful. Take a Chartered accountant and a CFA charter holder, add 17-plus years as a corporate warrior, mix in 10-plus years of entrepreneurship, throw in a decade of full time CFA training. Add speaking, mentoring, cycling, mountaineering and other endurance activities, and that’s me! Welcome to The Real Finance Mentor, or as I call it: RFM.
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Binod Shankar
Hi everyone, this is Binod Shankar here the real finance mentor, bringing you yet another installment of the RFM podcast that is focused on providing insight and inspiration for your finance careers. And my main ambition here is to look out for stories out there in the world of corporate finance, or, or financial services, and see what's so unique, what's inspirational, what's out there. And then I try and grab that person and ask them to be on my show. And they almost always say yes, and once person who said, Yes, is with me today. And I'm so glad that she's here.
Let me introduce you to Pascale Wazen Palpied. Pascale is the head of FactSet, Middle East and Africa. Now for those who haven't heard of FactSet, which I must admit, Pascale, should be highly unlikely if they are in investing, it's an American financial data and software company headquartered in Connecticut, the US. The company provides integrated data and software and its competitors include Bloomberg, Refinitiv and S&P Global. Now, Pascale started her career in Paris then moved back to her home country, which is Lebanon. Years later, she moved to Dubai, where she is now.
She joined FactSet five years ago as the regional head for Middle East and Africa. In her spare time, she mentors young women (which is another reason why I wanted her to be on the show), and tries to help in any way she can other women to advance their careers. Recently, she became co chair for the Factset EMEA women BRG. She also likes art, painting, decorating, and anything creative, which is very nice, for someone working in finance. And she is a mother of two boys, an advocate of work life balance, and recently got certified as a health coach to help herself and her family be healthier.
Pascale holds a Master's in finance and a bachelor's in economics.
Pascale, welcome to the show.
Pascale
Thank you. Thank you for having me here.
Binod Shankar
You grew up in Lebanon, I have this theory that almost all successful, confident women who come from developing countries must have had a childhood where the girl child was treated fairly and encouragingly, and not in the typical narrow minded, conservative, patriarchal manner that is so prevalent in such societies. Tell me about how you were raised and how that impacted your personality. In brackets, by the way, I'm hoping that your case proves my theory.
Pascale
Indeed, it does. My story confirms your theory.
So I grew up in Lebanon, I grew up with two brothers. But I never felt that because I'm a girl or a woman, I had less chances of achieving my dreams or anything. On the contrary, like I was always encouraged to do more, especially by my eldest brother, who was, you know, always giving, encouraging me to give me confidence when I was passing through, you know, those teenage years, where you can have lack of self confidence.
And it's very motivating when someone believes in you that much. It gave me a drive and a strong will to actually move from being like, average student to a striving student, a way for me to thank him. I think you guessed it, my brother is my role model. But you know, like, when young people ask me, who's your role model, and I see them always looking at, you know, like corporate CEOs or famous people.
I'm not saying it's bad, but I truly believe that the people who shape you are the people who are closest to your closest friends, your family. For me, it was my two brothers, my sister in law, my mother, who, at years old, for example, went back to finish her master's and re entered the workforce. And a story that shows that you know, it's never too late to start again.
Binod Shankar
It is interesting, you know, why look outside for a role model, like Steve Jobs or Elon Musk or some other corporate Titan when you already have a role model at home. In my case, it is my mom. She was also a college professor.
Now, you almost became a doctor is what you told me. Now, medicine’s loss became economics’ gain. Because you dropped out of medical college and completed a bachelor's degree in economics. What made you it pick up? Economics, what they call the dismal science, you know. Did you have a specific career in mind at that time?
Pascale
Yeah, so I hope that this serves as an example, that when you're young, it's okay not to have it all figured out. I know, I don't, I didn't, or at least I thought I did. Because I always wanted to be like, kind of a fun doctor that, you know, serves patients with empathy. But then during this first year, I felt so lost, I felt a sense of failure, and I was really lost. I didn't know what I wanted to do.
So I thought, okay, let me do architecture, because I do like creative things, or economics, because at the time, the banking sector was really thriving in Lebanon. Unfortunately, it's no longer the case. So I felt that there is career you know, potential. But also, you know, by coincidence, courses in economics started earlier than architecture. So I said, Okay, let me give it a try. And I started. I really liked the courses, I started to gain my confidence back. And I felt that you know, this is something I can build a career with. I might not be a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer, like every Arab mother once, probably the same in India.
Binod Shankar
Now, after the economics degree, Pascale, you went to France, right? For a two years master's degree in finance. That must have been a culture shock for you after growing up like you said, in war torn Lebanon, and even Lebanon post the peace accord wasn't really that normal.
What are the three things that you learnt from that experience of shifting from Lebanon to a Western country and living there and working there and going to college there? What was the three things that has stuck with you all this while?
Pascale
Yeah, so just another example here of how as a woman, I always got to do what I want.
So I wanted to start my bachelors to start working and helping the family. It's my brother again, that said, you know, encouraged me to go to France and I applied to France and I went to two very well known universities in Paris. And you know, like, I often look and wonder how my life would have been if I hadn't done that. On the personal level, I wouldn't have met my husband, but also on the professional level, it opened up so many doors for me, so very grateful for that.
On the culture shock, it's more like as a Lebanese, when you go to a French school, you are exposed to French culture, so I wouldn't call it a shock of culture. It was more once in Paris I noticed that you know, what I lived during my youth- the war even though I didn't have it as bad as others, and wasn't normal. I remember like crying the first time I went to Disney because I've never seen that. Or like taking the bus just to go by the monuments that I learned in books during school time. And I do love Paris.
About the three things that stayed with me I would say.
First, like if an experience is scary do it like whether it turns out to be what you expect or not we've been better. You always learn through the process. Like for me it was very scary to take the plane for the first time ever at 21 years old and live by myself in a foreign country you know and I'm very grateful that I did that.
Second what really helped me there is and I would say to do that with your kids is to make them street smart to make them you know not to take hardships and dwell on it for ages. Like think about the solution and manage to get back on their feet quickly so that you know they value things more they see the bigger picture. I always say that gratitude like now it's very a la mode or trendy. It's not a new thing for Lebanese. Like when you when you grow up during a war and then you start having you know, calm period. You realize that we always say in Lebanon “kater kheir allah” whatever happens to you always say Okay, thank you God for whatever I have. So I think this is really important. And it's something for example, that my husband realized when he moved to Lebanon, and it helped him see things differently.
And finally, I will say be genuine and true to yourself. I am a true believer that what goes around comes around. And you know, I saw it in France, that people randomly would help me. And I try to keep that in mind. So if you can help do it. You were once in someone's shoes, so just be humble and try to help as much as possible.
Binod Shankar
Yeah, I think it was a brilliant decision on your part to go from Lebanon to France. Because I've talked to a lot of my friends and former students, and this is the best thing they ever did, or what their parents did was send them overseas, you know, to the US or UK or Canada or Australia for further education. Because you learn so many new things, from a different look at things from a different perspective, things like that. And you're right as regard to resilience. If you grow up in a place like war torn Lebanon, you become very resilient, right? You become quite tough. And that's something that people say a lot about Lebanese people that they are very good survivors, so to speak.
Now, proceeding with the career after a short internship at AGF Asset Management in France, as fund management assistant, right, you joined Thomson Reuters, as Help Desk advisor. After seven months, you were promoted to Help Desk Manager, at the very young age of 25.
Now, my question here is, what are the traits they saw in you, for you to get promoted so quickly?
Pascale
Yeah, so it's funny when you contacted me for the podcast, it's like, you know, energies coming back and colleagues, ex colleagues contacted me again, either through a phone call, or even like a friend or an ex colleague came on vacation to Dubai I saw her. And I got to ask, like, I wanted to find the answer from me. But then I thought, what is what is better than asking the source, so I did get the chance to ask the person who was part of the interview.
And the reasons he gave was that, you know, it's my smile, my passion, the energy, but also combined to calmness that was very important to manage a Help Desk. Everyone who was unhappy you would first call the help desk. Another thing he mentioned was that I was always mentioning like the team, and what I can be of help to the team, which made me stand out. I was definitely like the challenger. And here, I really appreciate the fact that the company and the team took a chance on me. And this is something that I don't forget, I won't forget. And I do like when people do that, without making you feel that you owe them anything.
Binod Shankar
And at one point Pascale you wanted to go back to fund management, right? And you wrote, and you've passed level one, CFA, there's something in common between us, right? We have a CFA link finally. But then soon after your boss at Thomson Reuters asked you to stay in Sales. And you agreed. And soon your CFA journey stopped as well. Now, you told me earlier, when we had the discussion that you're glad that you listened to her. Looking back, tell me three reasons why staying in Sales was in retrospect, the best decision for you.
Pascale
So just for the story, I did want to be a portfolio manager. So that's also a second step where you think, okay, I got it figured out. Portfolio Management is going to be, what I'm going to do and I landed a role in at AGF.
And I was shadowing, by the way, the head of asset allocation, which was a very strong woman that I was even scared of a little bit, and but she was very talented. And the team at that time was very diverse, which is surprising years ago, and in this line of work in France. And to go back to like my Thomson Financial days, I was still managing, actually the Help desk and I wanted to go into my next step. So the head of region gave me two choices, the product management role of our solution for portfolio management or a sales role, and I was leaning to the first one.
And she insisted like she said, No, go into the sales role. And I really thank her for that for multiple reasons. First, the role the product management role actually didn't happen. So it was actually fate that happened. But it's also like a lot of things that I learned in different roles like hybrid and account management, new business, prospecting. All these roles teach you a lot, they thickened my skin, so it makes you even more resilient.
So I was resilient from what I did in Lebanon but never on the business side of resiliency, maybe not. So it did help me in that. And, you know, it opens a lot of doors to meet a lot of different people. And you know, what I always say, also, like, perseverance is the first trait that I see in a salesperson, because you try so much, so many times to get a prospect. And it's only like the hundredth time that it does. So it also showed me that perseverence is important. I could have decided to stay like a young manager and then moving from a management role to another. But I felt that if I do that, I wouldn’t bring anything more to the table to a more experienced team. I felt that sales really brought this on the ground learning that I would use in life in general, not only in work, I think we all negotiate in everyday life.
Binod Shankar
Interesting. People sometimes look down upon sales as something not technical and don't want to get their hands dirty. But I think was it Naval Ravikant or some famous investor, or bestselling author who said, sales is a critical skill that everyone must have. Because whether you're in finance, or marketing, or engineering, or wherever, you're always selling something to someone, right? Even if you're selling yourself or your services, or your CV. So interesting perspective, that and good for you that you switched to sales right.
Now, let's talk about your time with your bosses, right? Anyone who's spent years as you have done in a career must have had all sorts of bosses, right? The Good, the Bad, and the ugly. And I'm sure you are not an exception. I mean, I have had my share of all three. Now they say you learn even from your bad bosses. So I've got two questions for you regarding the world of bosses.
Number one is, what are the three habits you picked up personally from your best bosses that has helped you in your career so far?
Pascale
Yeah, so definitely, I had my share. I have even more than my share, I will say because of all the restructuring. But luckily, I had many more good bosses than bad bosses.
From the good bosses, I learned that, you know, trusting and having your team's back, shielding them from unnecessary politics or friction is important. Because like, when I think about the challenges that I had in my career, it was always it always came from a lack of trust, or like from a manager who wanted to save their skin first, or taking credit for the team's work. Other examples were like, where managers were really fighting for you and you were left all alone managing internal politics. I did live through a very large merger and during that time, there was a lot of uncertainties that can stress an employee. I was actually getting married the same year, and sitting for my CFA Level two, still trying to get it.
And you know, some stress could have been prevented with proper communication or proper filtering, too. So I think it's really important. And I learned that from the good managers of how they do by managing up and down in a very thoughtful manner, I would say. And, you know, like sometimes, luckily, I had those managers that trusted me, and I could see how my performance was different in those teams. Like I was giving my best and even more and no wonder like I was doing well with them because you know, the way how they treated me it gave me that extra boost.
Yeah, and even like, I can think of a time also that it made me comfortable speaking up in very delicate situations, because I knew that it was a safe space. I did have someone who backs me up, despite, you know, like any employee being worried about retaliation risk or anything. So that's one.
Second would be like understand what motivates or demotivates your team members. Empathy is really important. And you can't manage everyone in the same way. I learned that shadowing senior managers in my first management experience. And you know, you have to know your team members and to get to know them, you have to sit with them, ask them questions know, know about their lives. I remember, I was very scared when I got my role, like, first, I was the youngest and second, I was the last one arrived. Like, everyone had more experience that even one person was really much older than me. And I was like thinking, how am I gonna add value for him. How I'm gonna be credible, build trust with this person. And actually, you know, just by talking with this person, during that time, they were going through personal challenges, and just being there listening, supporting him as a manager made me build a good relationship with him. So, again, you have to ask those questions. Are your team members motivated by money, work life balance, recognition, or anything else? Just so you know, how to adapt your management style. And, yeah, like, and all this, for the, for the small anecdote. At that time, when I was shadowing those managers at the time, Thomson Financial, we were all women managers. So I don't know if empathy is natural, because that was happening there. But, you know, I would like to think that it's not, it was, you know, it's really important when you see an office in Paris, where it's not, it wasn’t at that time, very, like diverse, being led by women from diverse background, even our CEO of Thomson financial was a woman at that time. So and you know, you see it, like I remember, I was talking , with my husband and the war in Lebanon, and the amount of effort that the team and the managers put through just to try to get us back. They didn't manage to do it. But it's just until today, it kept a really important message with me, and I really valued I really felt valued and taken care of.
And third, I would say, listen. I think it's harder and harder. But when I look at the best managers that I had were people who listened to like, one to ones, but also let me speak up, let me speak in meetings. Like if their managers were there and if they wanted to convey an idea that I had, instead of like, saying it themselves to me, the opportunity to do it myself, giving me this visibility. Asking me about my career aspiration, and even if like, on the spot, they cannot do something about it they will come six, nine months down the line, and you know, show me that they were actually listening. I always say that, you know, when I mentor junior salespeople, they always ask me why I don't speak up when there's awkward silences in, in the client meetings. For me, it's like the first rule that I've ever learned and I find this really important even on the phone when I was prospecting. You know, it was something that really worked for me. And I will say pause,, let them recollect their thoughts. They're gonna give you a lot of valuable information. But if you speak first, you lost them.
So I always get offended when I hear Yeah, he's a good salesperson, because he speaks a lot and knows how to pitch and everything. And yeah. So yeah, this is, this is it. And I think listening is really harder and harder. You know, our attention span is shorter and shorter, like we multitask. We do a lot of things at the same time.
So I would say those are the three things that I would that I learned from my good, my best managers.
Binod Shankar
Right. Good ones. Let's talk about the bad ones. Right? What are the three habits you decided never to do by watching your worst bosses that later supported your growth as a manager.
Pascale
Yeah. So I would say like the when I also think about the bad managers, I think those are were good individual contributors that were given a role as a manager, just because I think people think that you know, this is how a career should go, but some people are not just not, you know, management material.
So the first one I would say like, that happened, like, example that happened and where is something I tried. Even though as a manager you always come with your ideas. You think it's hard not to, you know, suggest things etc. But it's about judging a new team without learning first, what are their market challenges? What are, you know, like the specificities of the region they are in. So to motivate the team, you know, before you give them ideas from 10,000 feet, you have to know what's going on. And I certainly experienced this, where I got like messages that weren't very empathetic. Also, like it was Arab Spring, someone sitting completely out of the region, that thought, you know, that this is like normal, what is happening in our region. So um, and, you know, for me, I'm motivated by recognition and acknowledgement of all the efforts I was making. What would have went a long way. It's always easier, like, as I say, it's always I also do it sometimes, like, it's always easier to judge from the outside. But when you do that, without knowing the region, have never been there , not knowing the clients, etc, it just doesn't go well with the team. And I remember that this time was really hard in my career. But I got through it, thanks to my peers and my colleagues, that, you know, their encouragement, they were seeing how much I'm still persevering, and trying, etc. and their encouragement was enough for me to get through. This is something I always keep in mind, it's like, I don't know more than the team just because my title has manager. And so yeah, really important.
And the second for me is not communicating properly, make managing up without honest feedback from the team members. And I have so many of those examples, like I lived through so many reorgs and mergers. It's true, it's hard to find, like, I saw it in the pandemic, to find a balance between over communicating and you know, worrying their team member and, you know, communicating, not communicating, or communicating a little bit less. But what I feel is that not communicating at all, silence is never a good idea.
And, you know, like, I'll give you an example. I was once told that I would get a potential role in the future, and I didn't hear anything about it. So I supposed that you know, like, the manager will come back to me when the time is right. And then in a team meeting, the person who actually got that role went up and presented his business plan. So like, it was clear that he knew for a long time, and yet I didn't get any communication on it, not before not after. Things can change, you know, like, I wasn't depending on that role, but the minimum you can do is to communicate on it. And you know, like, this breaks the trust, like I used to have a good relationship with this manager, but for me, it broke the trust and I couldn't think that they had my best interests in mind in the future.
And the last, the worst is the micromanaging for me. And I'm a strong believer when that when you hire people, you hire them, because you should trust them and empower them to do the job. Otherwise, like, don't hire a team. I do think that you know, when you hire juniors, it's normal to do some hand holding, help them out, be more like regular catch ups, etc. But it's temporary and it's to help them it's not like to you know, watch what they're doing, etc. And when you hire seniors, this like, you have to let them like why do you hire them in the first place? If you have to do the job then either it's a mismatch and you hired wrong, or you are micromanaging and you should stop doing it immediately. So yeah.
Binod Shankar
Interesting bit about what you learn from not just your great boss, but also from your worst bosses, right? And I can I can also narrate on a later occasion, my experience of what I learned from my worst bosses and my best bosses as well. So yeah, both are learning experiences. One is probably more painful than the other. That's yeah.
Right, Pascale let's talk about the tougher questions now. And I want to talk about something which has always bothered me for long. It is about sexism at work. Now, as a woman rising through the ranks, you must have either experienced it and/or seen it happen to someone else, right? It may be intentional or unintentional, explicit or implicit, but it happens. You also co chair of the Factset Women's Business Resources Group (BRG) in the EMEA region. So I've got two questions here for you, given this context that we are talking about.
The first is, what are you personally doing as a leader at FactSet to tackle gender based discrimination, and to support women in finance, which, as you and I know, are disproportionately low compared to men in finance?
Pascale
Yeah, so like, from my young age, I've always been passionate about this. So again, like to employ it, it's the way you are raised. If you're raised to see that you're equal to your brothers, why isn't the same everywhere in the world, it's like, my idealist hat, you know, takes over. So prior to Factset, you know, I was already trying to do some stuff. Like I'm married to a Frenchman, as I mentioned, and my kids are born in Lebanon, yet they don't have the nationality and they cannot have it. So it really bothers me, especially when you're living there, and people will tell me they are French, why would you want them to have a passport, a Lebanese passport. For me, it means a lot. And I tried to raise as much awareness as I can. Unfortunately, I still haven't managed to change the law or, but I do believe that if we continue like persistence, again, if it can continue talking about this, things will change.
So this is on the personal side. And even like before Factset, thanks to Thompson Reuters, I was, you know, part of Reach, and also mentoring, women mentoring, etc. Small activities here and there to see how I can help out. And then when I joined Factset, I tried to make changes. So I have an all woman team not that I mind I actually, you know, grew up with two brothers. So I really like working with men, but it was really clear that there was a big imbalance in the Middle East and Africa team. So along with the other managers, we consciously decided that we needed to change that. And from the junior hires, we started to push to get more women profiles. Went and spoke to the universities. Because also like, the thing is, sometimes they don't even apply. So you have to go and do this, like branding. And I'm really very proud to say that the team today is perfectly balanced. If not women more than men, because we recently had a small change. So it's, again, it's I consider this everyone's responsibility. You cannot look at your demographics and say, I have more men than women, okay. You really have to do something about it. And as a hiring manager, you can.
So this is the first thing and then, you know, I tried with HR to do more things with FactSet at the time. And then they decided to create a business resources group that actually represents not just women, but a lot of other things we should be raising awareness on and I decided to apply for the co chair role. And I went to an interview and was part of it so. And you know, like you always ask yourself, What am I going to bring to the table. But just sharing experiences talking about it like I'm doing today, gets younger women to know that they're not alone. That it's not only them that feel that there are microaggressions or that fear that imposter syndrome. We still have a lot to do, but it's like, we're going in the right track I would say. And you know, but I do still get a little bit annoyed. Like I am I'm in the Middle East and Africa region and when I go in the meeting room, or even CFA events, etc, I am still either the only woman in the room or minority in the room. And even like when I go with men colleagues, they think automatically that the man is heading the region, which makes me feel, you know, frustrated. And it happens much more often than you think.
So we really, really have still a long way to go.
Binod Shankar
I mean, let's not talk about that last part there, Pascale, because from what I've seen, in both my life in corporate as entrepreneur, and teaching so many CFA candidates, and looking at my LinkedIn connections, a lot of who engage with me privately and via my posts, I feel a lot of women don't even bother going to finance because it looks so formidable, partly because it's male dominated. And/ or some of them join, but they give up or drop out, because they feel it's just life is just too hard trying to power their way through the male dominated hierarchy.
So my question to you the second question I have for you is at the individual level, Pascale, what are three practical things women can do to handle sexism at work in whatever shape or form so that they don't get demotivated and hence, give up or drop out of a career or a job in finance?
Pascale
Yeah, just the paranthesis. Before that, like, I think that, you know, thank you for giving me this opportunity. Because the more people like me, speak and share their stories, the more people can see that you can actually have a life in a male dominated and a career in a male dominated sector, will encourage more women to go for it. So I do think that we all have, and we rely on allies, to, you know, multiply our voice.
So if again, in the same spirit, I would say to those women not to listen to the voice in their head, like questioning why they are here? Or will I succeed in a finance career. They need to be more confident. It's only them and you know, facing those insecurities, no one else is seeing them. Probably everyone else is valuing their, their work. So be confident, and not arrogant, but confident.
I would also say not to hesitate to speak up if you feel discriminated. I know, I've had a couple of instances. And you know, sometimes it's just unintentional. Which, you know, it's even like, I always give the example of my two boys like, we went with my husband to how you say like, to the desert, and I wanted to drive the car in the desert. And my boys first reaction was No, Mom, it's Dad who drives the car, even though they see that we, you know, we do everything half half still and they're not raised this way still for them it is the man who drives the car. And so then I told them, You know what, no, it's mom, and you have to encourage me, and they started encouraging me. But it really is everywhere, because this is how, you know, it is. But we have to raise awareness. And sometimes it's, it's really unintentional, and we need to have more allies and speak about it,
Then I would say, network. Like, I know that how I got some of the opportunities was through the fact that I was building those relationships internally and externally, internationally, remotely, not remotely. So the more people you know, the more you know, they will know about what you can do. And the solid network also gives you a safe space to speak up, and to go to someone if you feel that you've been discriminated in any way. So it's really important.
And I will finally say and give a shout out to a friend in Lebanon, who's decided to do something about it. Like it's not, you don't need to wait for your company to create a business resource group to do it. For it to happen. You can decide to do it outside of it, informally or formally. So she has decided to create the business resource group in her company and act instead of just like complaining in your corner and say it's a very male dominated. Yes, but if you don't do anything about it, it won't change in years.
Binod Shankar
Yeah, actually, I would like to point out for or raise that point you raise about networking, which I, sometimes I keep talking about, like a broken record. I think women can and should network a lot more than they do now. Because networking gives you like you said, allies, sponsors, mentors, potential employers. And that's, that's very important when you're doing something so difficult and trying to find your voice in such an environment.
Now, continuing on the same theme of women in finance Pascale, something else I recall you mentioning in our earlier call is the imposter syndrome, right? That seems to affect women far more than men. As you told me, it has happened to you. And it usually manifests itself in people thinking, women thinking that I don't deserve to be here. And or that I can't handle that challenge. Things like that. The result is that women often don't seize the opportunities that they could do well at, and they meekly give way to men. So what are the three actions women can take to deal with this, I would say destructive imposter syndrome.
Pascale
I can share how I dealt with it and continue to deal with it.
Like first, if there is a role I really want to try, I always tell myself, what is the worst that can happen? Once I realized that the worst thing is not the end of the world, I just go for it. And it gives me the strength and intelligence to do it. So that's first and honestly, like I always say, it's better to do it than to live with regret. So many times we don't do it. And we keep thinking, Okay, well, what if what if?
The second is like when you know about the position. And so for me, this is how it was, like when I learned that this is something that women experienced more than men. Men also do just that we do it more.. And helps you overcome it. And you realize that, okay, I am not the only one and I should do something about. And I read, I follow Adam Grant on LinkedIn. And I read something that he said, because it says that it's a paradox. You know, others believe in you. But you don't believe yourself, yet you believe yourself more than you believe them, which is not logical if you follow the logic. So you should believe their judgment more than yours.
And finally, like, I would say, the last advice is that if let’s say you get a seat at the table, by mistake, or luck, or call it whatever you like, like I consider that FactSet took a chance on me when I got my role six years ago. You're there now. So make the best out of it. Work on yourself to be up to the challenge. In all cases, you know, to learn, you have to get out of your comfort zone. You have to take this role where you're not ready for it yet. And you're gonna learn along the way. I always say that when I compare myself today to six years ago, of course, I've changed, of course, I've learned from the challenges and the opportunities, from my mistakes. I learned from colleagues, and we all did go through a pandemic together. We all learned.
Those were those are the three things that I would say.
Binod Shankar
Yeah, I mean, you wear quite a few hats these days, don't you Pascale? Apart from the personal side of being a mom and managing the family. And apart from being in professional side, a woman leader in finance, you're also a hiring manager, you hire people, which is a very powerful position. And you have hired so many people in your career. Now, what were the best and worst three hires you made? And why were they the best and worst in your opinion?
Pascale
Yeah. So first, it's great to be able to hire and just having this opportunity to give someone a chance is always how, you know, it's a responsibility and a great opportunity. So recently, you know, maybe because I'm over 40 now, I was just looking at a personal assessment of what I like to do and what are my transferable skills. Provided I want to do something more creative, for example, or switch careers completely. And I realized that I do love recruiting, building teams, reorganizing teams, finding the right, like place for someone. Sometimes you know you hire people and move them around and you know, they do wander just because they were mismatch between the role and what they can do. So I hired a lot, different roles in different locations, entry levels, but also, you know, and senior levels. And when I was hiring entry levels, it's kind of like the way it works, they enter, and then they will take on other roles. So it's the internal promotion path. So here, it's very important to hire for potential and culture fit. Because what you want is that this person goes into this say a sales role or a consultant role or product manager role. So the skills you hire for, or the potential you hire for is going to be different and the personalities are going to be different.
I would say like the worst hires were the ones where I didn't listen to my intuition. And I wasn't patient enough to find the right candidate. I wanted the candidate tomorrow or yesterday. And so I didn't give it time. I had my doubts, but I thought, okay, it's okay. Or I hired relying like, I do trust people until they prove me wrong, which I believe is a quality, but sometimes, it does put you in awkward situation. And I did hire based on the recommendation of someone who has been in the company longer than me when I just joined or something like this. Which I kind of regret because it's your responsibility at the end of the day.
And so yeah, like on the best hires though I think it's the ones where I took a chance on people. Like I mentioned that I really value different opportunities where the company took a chance on me like early on in , Thomson Financial and Thomson Reuters and Factset. I believe it really, you know, gives you this extra boost, you say they took a chance on me, I'm going to show them that they were right. And I ran into someone recently. And it's exactly what he said. And His words was like, I can't thank you enough for giving me the role, despite not having any industry experience. And it changed his life. And it meant a lot for me.
So the best hires for me are definitely on attitude and not on technical skills. For me, if you have the right attitude, you're motivated, you go the extra mile to upskill quickly. And I've seen it happen several times. I will give the example that my husband learned Arabic when he was like in his thirties. So and this is just because he was curious enough, and wanted to you know really learn the culture. So if he can do it, then you or anyone can learn as a skill. But what is important is the soft skills behind it. You have to be curious, you have to have the right attitude, you have to be persevering. All those are soft skills.
Binod Shankar
You know, Pascale, they call it soft skills, yet it's the hardest to learn. I know lots of professionals who are technically very well qualified, right, and skilled but rubbish at dealing with people. And we're talking with people in their 30s and 40s, not youngsters. Now, you must be good at interpersonal relations yourself to have made this far in corporate. And of course, I can sense that, with all the conversations we've had over the past few weeks. Can you inform the listeners on three ways by which they can get better at this very hard skill of soft skills?
Pascale
So first, I would say to actively listen. I think we touched on it already when talking about the manager. So I won't go into a lot of details. But listening will help you build better relationships with your stakeholders, whether they are clients or others. You know, I will say that people buy from people and from people they like. But for them to like you, you have to make it about them not you when you're talking. So you know, ask those open-ended questions. Be genuinely interested in what they're telling you about what they're telling you. You know, I always give the example also that six months down the line, you meet them again, you mention what they told you really goes a long way. So many times people say wow, you remember and you know this is really important. And this is how listening is really important in any relationship and in us being in society. That would be like the first one.
The second one I would say so practice listening, actively listening, open-ended questions. Because it's hard and harder now with social media and doing so many things at the same time.
Another thing that I learned, actually from a sales manager who used to report to me and is now in our London office, he used to be the champion of asking for feedback. He always asked for feedback, like from whoever, not only for me, from colleagues, or more junior members of his team. He would go into meetings, ask for feedback. And you know, like, people were shy in the beginning, sharing the feedback, because they'd never know how people would think. But, you know, the more and more you ask for it, the more you get this kind of feedback. And you know, like, sometimes you won't agree with it. But it's important to see how also people perceive you so that you can change things or correct whatever.
And then the last one, I would say is, I learned recently, and it's about focusing on your strengths. So a lot of the personality tests or sales management, like courses, they always tell you, those are your strengths, these are your weaknesses, and they focus on your weaknesses. This method, I found it very positive, it tells you okay, you are very strong those things. So why don't you amplify those (strengths) and still work on your weaknesses, but amplify, amplify those? I found that really important.
Binod Shankar
Hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, something I always wanted to ask you was given your profile at work, as well as having a personal life and quite an active personal life. What are the three things that you do or have done that enables you to juggle a busy work life as a senior executive with raising two small kids and managing a family? So what are the hacks?
Pascale
Yeah, I will just say that I would like this question to be also asked to men. One day will come where it will also be a question for men.
So first, I always say that I don't choose the employer based on compensation or material things. And it's true, like I could have changed the course of my life if I had done that. But the values, like the company that I work for, stands for are really important to how they manage, you know, how they take care of their employees.
I'm not saying I work for free, no, but it's important. And I personally think even though a lot of women came out of the pandemic, and they were hit the most, I also think that they also created like kind of made it normal for people to have flexible working hours. Like, I know that I didn’t use this flexibility, even though my employer used to let me do that. But I was scared of the judgement. But now that I see that everyone is using it, regardless if they're married or unmarried, or have a family , men and women. And so it really gave me more confidence of using it without having this judgment that I thought might happen.
Secondly, I would say that, I would lie if I said that my career wouldn't be at a standstill when I was like, building my family. It was on standby. And I was a little bit frustrated, because it was timed also with my move to Lebanon. And in Paris, you know, like I had my network, my sponsors, so every kind of two years, I was being promoted. In Lebanon, I stayed in the same role for seven years. Of course, it changed a little bit, my remit changed, but still, it was still the same role. So I felt frustrated. But what I would say is like, you know, I got one of my promotions, I got them just after maternity leave. It was, you know, a manager and man manager, so not a woman. He was breaking the bias at that time and a lot to that. So my point is, you know, you're focusing on your family, or you feel your career status at stand still, but keep doing what you are doing. And also let your employer know sometimes they assume and assumptions you know, are risky, I always say like that. You do a lot of things just based on assumptions. They might assume that you want to take it slow because you have your first child or second and they're still young, or you have a family that looks something different for you like if you're taking care of your parents. So let them know. Because, you know, sometimes they want to give you this opportunity, but they just feel you're not ready.
And third, I would say, have a support system. So, for example, we made a conscious choice to move to Lebanon, at the time, when we decided to have a family because we felt it's easier for us to have a support system there. Also, my husband was on board. But also, like, I mention him a lot, because for him, those, they are his kids too. You know, it's not like he's just playing with them, he takes care of them as much as I do, if not more. So, this also helps me to have the career I have so.
And, you know, I learned through my last certification that everyone has a circle of life, and you don't have to have it all the time, 100% in every element of circle of life, like family, career. Sometimes you have to give way for the family, over your career, etc. And it's okay. And the importance is, you know, to maintain balance, and for you to be happy and comfortable.
Binod Shankar
Yeah, I mean, which is which neatly segues to my next question, because everyone as they proceed in their career Pascale, they, they face questions, right, they face options, they have to surmount problems, at work, sometimes linked to their personal life as well. And it's always useful to have a sounding board, like an advisor, or a coach or a mentor.
So I wanted to ask you, have you ever been coached or mentored in your career? Even if informally? And if so, how did you and your mentor find each other? And what was the experience of the coaching or mentoring?
Pascale
Yeah, have been coached and mentored, formally and informally. And I can't stress how much it's important and lucky, I was lucky to have that. And I still, you know, look for it at this stage in my career. And I hope that you know, that the listeners will think about it then like a habit as a call to action to have a mentor or coach, whether formally or informally.
So for the informal ones, it was more like by discussions you have with senior people, or even junior people that do something that you would need help on, or that have some vision that is different from yours. And this is how it started, like a conversation that went by and became a little bit more of a mentoring on an informal level. So it's more affinities. And I would say friendships that don't necessarily need to be like friends with your mentor or coach.
On the formal side, I've been lucky to be in several companies where they took mentorship, coaching and some sponsorship seriously. And the last experience I had, I was actually sponsored by leadership, a member. And I still have a very good relationship with this person, even though they left the company, but it was really very good. And at that time, I needed my mentor to be a sponsor. I needed because you know, a mentor can be different things. And at that time, I needed a voice for my region, close to the CEO, close to the company's headquarters and to get that I needed that sponsorship. And I really valued this experience.
Binod Shankar
I'm going to get a little bit personal now. Because, you know, early conversations in all your conversations, you have always come across as super calm, right? Positive. And that was confirmed by one of your colleagues who said that the one big reason why they hired you, as you relate earlier, why they hired you to manage the help desk, despite your lack of experience was because you know, you came across as very grounded and calm. So I think it's not only a rare quality it is essential that for any leader to be so.
So how do you manage to stay calm as a leader, especially in these volatile times?
Pascale
I think it's unfortunate to say that maybe , in every Lebanese that grew up during the war, like you grow up through the war, you think it's okay, it's not the end of the world. But also like through professional experiences. It doesn't mean that I cannot get angry and uncalm, but it takes longer time for me to show the stress etc. It does look easy maybe to some, but it's not.
But I always try to remember that, you know, I managed to get through something that very hard like, remind myself of those experiences those examples where I, you know, I went through the other side. So I came to the other side. And I think to myself, I can do it again, it's not that complicated. Another thing that happened is that also, you know, it's the corporate world, you get a lot of corporate trainings etc. But not many stick like, some of them just give you a good refresher, but they don't stick.
One that really stuck is one that I did at Thomson Reuters, that tells you that you shouldn't focus on the things you cannot control, like, those are things that whatever you do about, you're just going to dwell on them. But you can’t change them. Its better to look at the things you can actually control and look for the solution.
So this is something I try to follow on a daily basis. So it's better to focus your energy on something, you can manage something like control and things will be good.
Binod Shankar
Yeah, more power to you. I wish there were more people like you in corporate to be honest, and I wish I could absorb some of that calmness from you, because I'm not always super calm.
I'm going to dig a little bit more personal Pascale. So I'm quite fitness and nutrition focused. And I noticed with huge delight that you are a certified coach from the Institute of Integrative Nutrition. I think wellness is a highly relevant topic in this pandemic times. And leaders usually ignore this vital element in themselves and in their teams.
So this is the biggest question because I've got four sub questions for you right on this topic. So important.
First question is, there's usually a trigger that makes people change their lifestyle. What made you focus on wellness and take up this course?
Pascale
Yeah, so I was approaching 40. So I was it was my 39th birthday, and I was approaching 40. And things that you know, got better at work and I decided I want to go on a health journey. And I even posted it on my social media accounts. I thought, you know, when you do it, when you say it in front of people, you become more accountable for it. But also they encouraged you. There was so much encouragement coming.
It's funny that I'm talking about this here, because it's something it's a subject that like, I don't know, years ago, you'd asked me to talk about it, I wouldn't have said yes, because I struggled a lot my teenage years with weight. I would lose and go back up and gain even more because I was always doing like this. You don't have a strong will. I would follow it to the letter for a short period of time and fad diet and then gain it all back again because I wasn't really changing anything in in my mindset.
So I decided that day that before I turned 40 I want to be healthy. And for me this was the first time that healthier did not mean skinny, did not mean being at my ideal weight or fitting in my 18 years or 20 years jeans. It was really helpful to be in shape, be confident in my clothes, be able to breathe, go up the stairs without losing breath, play with my boys being in front of the camera lens.
I know that we had a lot of back and forth on the pictures. I love taking pictures but me in the pictures little bit less. So you know. And I had also like some health issues with hormones. Even one with the third child. So I decided really I want to go on a health journey. And I lost kilos on my own so like in one year. So it took a long time but it was really through changes like something long term.
Then I went on holidays and I started like losing this will to make changes. So I thought okay, I'm going to go back again to get help and pay money again to help coach and do like a more structured diet. It worked but then the pandemic started and the stress of it, missing family. We also bought a house in the middle of the pandemic and we started doing renovations, pressure at work and homeschooling when both of us you know have a busy career. So yes, I am an emotional eater. I did try to exercise with my kids and family. But, you know, eventually I got the weight back.
But what I realized is that the weight that I got back quickly was the one that I got through diet and the other one took a long time. Because I had like, a really healthy relationship with food while losing though. So again, also, like during the pandemic, I think a lot of people asked themselves what they can study. I always loved studying so, I thought, okay, let me do something AI or digital transformation related to my career.
But then I thought, okay, you know what, I'm going to use the money (I was paying the health coach), and actually get certified myself as a health coach. Because who's best positioned to know more about myself than me. And, you know, I wanted to understand why. What is the trigger that makes me eat and binge eat. And I really learned a lot. I really liked it, because they show you a lot of different opposed methods, I would say, and it is up to you to see what works for you. So it's all about bio individuality, things like this. And, you know, I'm not where I was in . But I am working towards it and putting in place things that, you know, work long term. So, exercise more. I realized what is triggering my binge eating, and tried to cook. Yeah. So I think it's a daily struggle, but I'm on the right track.
Binod Shankar
Yep. Going back to that point, which you made, the answer to the previous question about doing things about it.
So what are the three key steps that you're taking regularly as part of your transition to better health?
Pascale
Yeah, so first, I would say exercise. Like if you would ask my family, or anyone who knows me, if I would ever exercise regularly it wasn’t. I like watching sports, but not exercising. But today I do exercise. And regularly, like, even if it's 10-15 minutes, I still do it. And it really helps me mentally. Like I know, we talk a lot about mental health, this is something that really, you know, changes my mood.
Cooking more. Like I love cooking. I love experimenting with cooking and mixing things that you don't think of mixing. But I don't know, I just felt out of it. And like, I didn't have the will to cook anymore. But now I'm gonna make it a point to cook again. And at least I know, what is going in the food for me and my family.
I also started acupuncture, which is something like, again, putting needles in my body would have not been something I would think about earlier on. Yes, I started it. And it's really great. And helping me a lot.
Binod Shankar
Yeah, and my third question was actually related to this same process of change, right? Because it's usually so tough Pascale to develop new habits and drop old ones, right? I mean, at a personal level, I'm very curious.
What were your three biggest problems when moving to a healthier lifestyle? How did you solve this?
Pascale
So it's exactly that. I think what used to happen is let's say I would do something good. And then I would go into doing something that is not exactly what I should be doing for healthy eating. And then I would say, Okay, I dropped the ball so and stop it because it's very hard to change habits.
Yeah, so what I used to do is like, sometimes I'm binge eating, I eat things that I didn't even, you know, like. But today, what I tried to do is limit the temptations at home and be mindful of what is causing me to, to eat more. And I tried to do something else to like, put my mind out of it.
So for example, I love dancing, I love music and put on my favorite music. And that's if I can. I don't journal I know something like some people do, and it's something that is recommended, but for me, I had a bad experience. So it doesn't work for me. But it is important to understand what works for you. It doesn't mean what works for someone else will work for you. So um, that's one.
Second was to motivate myself to exercise. I would go and subscribe to gyms, the best, the closest with a friend, etc. But I would barely go. And I found that what works for me is exercising at home. I have a friend who created like a dance class, that is all based on feeling the music and enjoying it, and it works for me. Or I do like small short videos. So I'm here I'm saying to myself, I came, I tried. And you know, it's just seven minutes, then we ended up doing 40 minutes. The other day I ran, which is something that I would have never done, you know, and it's important to tell yourself, you know, I was so happy that I ran. So it's important also to encourage yourself and tap yourself on the back.
The hardest is in eating less fats and sugars. And I've tried to do like the same recipe in the oven and try to cut down on wine, which is an achievement when you are married to a Frenchman.
Binod
Yeah, I mean, it can be quite tempting when you have all this very delicious fat thing and sugary foods cheaply and easily available at around you all the time.
And of course, my last question on this very important topic is the power of results to motivate you. So it's nice to see regular results coming in.
My question was, what are the significant positive results that you are seeing in yourself both at work and at home as a result of the transition to wellbeing? Do you advocate better health at work as an incidental question?
Pascale
Yeah, so I have so much more energy. I have felt more confident on the weight like in 2019. But I will get back there so I'm not worried.
I do advocate for better health at work. I'm really proud to say that you know, when the pandemic started, the first wellness initiatives taken by FactSet globally came from team members, from a Factset team. Because we knew that some, like someone in the team did yoga, someone did meditation, so we asked them to do during our check ins, run it for the team, and then they ran it through the entire company. So I do that. And I do encourage that.
But I also want to raise awareness. And this is one of the reasons that I said that maybe I wouldn't have talked about it years ago, but today, I am talking about it. Because it's important also to raise awareness, awareness on the discrimination when might get when they are overweight in the work environment. I think we tend to not think about it because people think in their mind that, you know, like race or gender. This is different because weight people can actually do something about it. It's my responsibility and everyone's responsibility.
That said, there is a bias. I remember that when things got tough at work, I was binge eating and emotional eating. So I arrived at the highest weight I've ever seen. And I cannot say that, you know, everyone was very inclusive in the workplace. So just like, you know, it doesn't get to me as much. But when I was a teenager, and until my 30s, I had a very hard time with my body image. I didn't wear short sleeves, I was wearing like my brother's clothes, very loose, which made me look even more overweight. And I hope that this, you know, sharing this shows that you know, we talked a lot about bullying at school, but it does continue, I would say in the workplace, maybe not in the same way. But we have to be inclusive in every sense of it, not just pick and choose what inclusivity is important for us.
Binod
Well, we have been talking for quite long now time flies, Hey, when you are having fun?
I always wrap up my interviews with experienced professionals like yourself by asking them to give advice to youngsters. So valuable.
So what three piece of advice, Pascale, would you give anyone in his or her early 20s who is today either entering the workforce or in earlier career stage.
Pascale
Yeah, I would say it's quite challenging to enter the workforce today. Like I remember like when I joined, we had like a five week training session, all together. So it helps you like meeting your managers, meet other team members. So it's all happening virtual or at least in hybrid mode today.
I would still say not to have this as a, like an obstacle to create your network. Like find those opportunities to connect with seniors, with peers, with colleagues, even if your company is not trying to do it. Because I do think that companies also are realizing how do we do we onboard those young people who are joining our company. But even if your company is not doing the extra effort, do it yourself, network is really important. Ask questions. Shadow, you know, just have a few minutes, chat on teams or zoom with anyone and they will appreciate it. And it will help you know, like get to know the company better get to know people better. And it will be very important as you grow into your career into the company. So that's one.
Second, I would say and this is something that I always say when I was managing the help desk. You know a lot of people were telling me even when I started “but you majored in finance, why are you starting on the help desk”?. I will say that it's not the role that defines you. You define the role you're in. And please don't stick to the job description. Like I don't like the attitude where this is my job description and that's exactly what I do. Like, I think you learn a lot. Of course, sometimes, you know, you don't want to step on other people's shoes. But you learn a lot from being curious to know to do more than what your role entitles. And also you become you know, like the obvious option for moving into the next role in your career path.
And then I would say keep an open mind. Sometimes your next step is not exactly what you imagine. But if you stay curious and then a couple years down the line, you realize that this experience was actually really good for me. You know, you always read that “A career is not a linear path”. And that's very true. Because I remember like, when I moved from the management role to a sales role, individual contributor role, people told me about why. And for me, okay, I would have continued as a manager, but then at a certain time I was doing well as a manager. But as I go along, I would have maybe not done as well.
So it's not a problem to kind of take a step back. For people in their minds to take a step back. For me, it wasn't a step back. And this is where I want to say to people that you define your success. And what matters is what makes you happy and proud at the end of the day.
Binod
Well, that brings us to the end of this very interesting episode. Pascale, I must thank you for many things, starting with your patience. I think we've gone through what, four versions of the script. But, you know, we've got a very concise, comprehensive message that anyone pursuing a career would find it invaluable to listen to.
Thank you for your patience to start with. Thank you for your honesty, because I think especially regarding upbringing, and dealing with bad bosses, dealing with imposter syndrome, and sexism, and you know, wellness, weight loss and gain issues. Thank you for the very brave honesty that you've demonstrated, which I think a lot of young women can take heart from and be inspired by.
Thank you for insights. I think, when you're honest and when you're patient all these insights come together in a very neat package, which I hope this podcast will be seen as by people listening to it. So thank you for all that. And hopefully one day we'll meet face to face when I'm back in Dubai.
Pascale
Hopefully and I wanted to thank you also from my side like this was really very interesting also, for me.
I think you put your guests at ease so that they can get their authentic self and share their experiences. And this means a lot because as I said, I've done it before and it's always hard like to kind of reveal yourself but through the back and forth, you will gain more and more. You know you trust more your host and give more insight and I do hope that everyone who watches this finds it useful.
Binod
Thank you so much again, Pascal. Thank you
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This podcast is brought to you by the real finance mentor. Thank you so much for listening and I really hope you found it insightful and inspirational. If you did enjoy this episode, please drop us a review and spread the word. You should check out more exclusive content on therealfinancementor.com and my LinkedIn profile which is: Binod Shankar, FCA, CFA. Let’s keep in touch! Just add your name to the mailing list on therealfinancementor.com, and we’ll tell you about new episodes plus book reviews, upcoming events and blogs. Till the next time, onwards and upwards.
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