Episode 32: Confidence is a skill that you must work on | Saiyida Zainab Ghadezi
How do you go from an under achieving and confused accountant stagnating in a small company in Sharjah to a Portfolio Manager and CFA charter holder with one of the largest independent wealth management firms in the US with an AUM of $ 35 billion? How on earth do you get hired in your chosen sector when you have zero industry experience and are totally new to a vastly different country? What’s the secret sauce of the metamorphosis from painfully shy introvert to confident public speaker? Etc. etc.
This is truly a story of transformation. I’ve known Saiyida for many years now so it’s an inspiring saga that has also impressed and delighted me. Crucially, it shows the potential for dramatic change in all of us.
Listen to Ms. Gardezi speak eloquently, openly, in detail and with passion. Quite a few insights in this episode so I hope you have pen and paper ready!
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
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Binod Shankar:
This is Binod Shankar and you’re listening to the real finance mentor podcast from the realfinancementor.com. The real finance mentor is your go-to resource for insight and inspiration on careers in finance, CFA and more. Now you might think, why this podcast? Well, my goal is to deliver insight and inspiration for your financial career, by making it, one: relatable. I mean this is not theoretical stuff. We zero-in on the critical, practical issues. Number two: authentic. No bullshit, no side-stepping. The topics, guests and questions are all from that perspective. And number three: insightful. Take a Chartered accountant and a CFA charter holder, add 17-plus years as a corporate warrior, mix in 10-plus years of entrepreneurship, throw in a decade of full time CFA training. Add speaking, mentoring, cycling, mountaineering and other endurance activities, and that’s me! Welcome to The Real Finance Mentor, or as I call it: RFM.
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Binod:
My guest today is Saiyida Zainab Ghadezi, who is a CFA charter holder. I've known Saiyida for quite some time now. And she comes from a very interesting background. After finishing her degree from American University of Sharjah, she spent about five, six years in accounting. That's not the interesting part. She moved to the US, where she is right now, in Dallas, at about and a half hours away from where I'm recording right now. She is working as a portfolio manager in Argent Financial Group, which is one of the leading independent fiduciary wealth managers in the US, managing an AUM of approximately billion US dollars. Saiyida actually handles multi-asset portfolios for individuals, family offices, institutions, and she gets involved in very interesting things like asset allocation, research, rebalancing, and so forth.
Now, one of the reasons why I have her here is because her journey is one of self-awareness, discovery, transformation, and career success, among other things. Today, we're going to explore all that. We are also going to explore things like what you do in college, what you learn, or what not to do, and what to do. The power of soft skills and networking, very important! How to deal with depression, how do people see depression, and, of course, career tips for anyone aspiring to be in finance. So, a very warm welcome to the show, Saiyida.
Saiyida: Thank you, thank you Binod. Very happy to be here.
Binod:
Now, tell us a bit about your earlier years, including parents, parenting, schooling, and the religious and cultural environment. This so-called backstory could help the listeners understand you and the questions and answers that follow, much better.
Saiyida:
Okay, so I was born in Pakistan, both of my parents and my parents’ families are from Pakistan. So, I grew up there, and really hadn't explored much of the world or hadn't gone anywhere, apart from just being in Pakistan. And maybe I had visited Dubai once, to come to see my uncle. And that would have been when I was maybe , or . So other than that, I really had, apart from just seeing what I saw on TV I had no real exposure to what was life or the world outside of Pakistan, and outside of my own family, cultural, societal bubble. When I was or , my dad got a job in Dubai. And really, that was the biggest change, I would say, in my life. And that really shaped me and changed me as a person at a time, or at an age that is a very impressionable and a very important age in your life. So that was when we moved to Dubai.
And then, you know, things started changing from there. But talking about family…I wouldn't say my parents were very progressive, or what we call progressive now. I think my parents were a good mix of both, and they were close to their cultural roots. We all know how South Asian culture is. It is a bit patriarchal. And also, some families are more patriarchal than others, but on the whole, the culture is patriarchal.
Both of my parents put immense pressure and immense importance on education, which we don't see in all the other families, especially, when we talk about education for women. So both of my parents, (huge kudos to them) coming from a time they came from and whatever they saw in the society, there was never any discrimination in terms of education for me, my sister, and my brothers. So we always had that good solid base…that education is important. And even growing up, I've heard my dad say to me and my sister that, “When you guys grow up, make sure you're working and you're making your own money”. And growing up, that was something very normal that we heard from my dad. So, it was only after I grew up, and I started talking to my friends and we started discussing how our childhoods were and what our parents used to say, and other dads wouldn't say stuff like that. So my dad would always say, “Earn your own money. Never be dependent on anybody else's money, whether it's your husband or whoever. Just make sure that you're financially secure, that you can make your own decisions and not have your decisions kind of based on the fact that you may be financially dependent on someone else, so it limits some of your options”.
So, yes, both of my parents had some feminist traits in that regard. But then also, there was a cultural side to them, or at least to their families. So growing up, being a woman, or being a young impressionable girl, I would hear stuff if not directly from my parents, but at least from the people around me, just the society at large, like- the importance of marriage, and how marriage is so integral to a woman, and how women should get married at the right age, and the right age being in the early s. And if a woman does not get married at the right age then she may never get married, and if she does not get married then that somehow impacts her status in society or diminishes her status in society. And then also, a woman should get educated, but not too educated, or she should not be more educated than her husband. So, I would call it toxic, this is stuff that a girl should not be hearing!
Saiyida:
So, I was glad that my parents were there to kind of balance or to kind of offset some of this verbiage, or some of the very normal conversations that you would hear in the society, in school, wherever.
Binod:
Yeah, I always say, “You are a product of two things- upbringing and genetics”. And obviously, there’s a very strong correlation between the way children are raised whether conservative or open-minded or parochial or patriarchal and how they turn out later in life. And I've observed that a lot among my former students and mentees. So I have no doubt that how you were raised and your sisters were raised, had a huge influence on how you have turned out now and we will dig into that later in the podcast, but a fascinating story, nevertheless.
Let's fast forward to you being in college. You graduated with a finance degree from the AUS in the UAE. Yet your first few jobs were in accounting and not finance despite the fact that AUS had and still has probably the best finance department faculty in the UAE. Why did you then choose a job in accounting and not finance?
Saiyida:
I will say that when I started AUS, I was a very different person than I am now. I was a good student, I had good grades but I wasn't really sure about what I wanted my career path to look like. So I started at AUS with a marketing concentration (or my major was marketing). It was only towards the end of the second year or towards the third year that I changed it to finance. And that's when I knew that I wanted to do something in finance, but I wasn't really sure, whether it was investment management or being a financial analyst, or working in corporate finance, versus wealth management. I did not know much about all of this. So I did not know the practical side of getting a degree in finance and what that would look like. Also, I would say that I was book-smart and I was not really what they call street smart. So that's one point. And then the other one I would say was, I had a bit of an entitled attitude, maybe at that point, I was too egoistic to even admit and talk about it but now I know.
And I'll start with the second point. AUS at least was and probably still is one of the best universities in the region. So when I got my admission in AUS, I kind of thought I've made it, who else are they going to hire. So when I graduate, probably companies are going to be lining up to hire me. Because they may not want to hire some other gal or guy from a smaller or less known university in the region. So that's an entitlement attitude and there's an issue with that. You can't see your blind spots with that kind of an attitude. So I would say that was one reason. And then, not really having the practical knowledge or the practical experience. I had cousins and other folks that I had known, that were not studying in AUS, or they were studying in other universities, like the Canadian University of Dubai or some of the other ones, and they would be out there working. Whether it was summer break when they were in th grade, or it was summer break during the first year of college, they would work at any kind of event that's happening in Dubai, or just being out there networking, talking to people, getting to know the folks in the community, and I was not doing any of that. The only thing I did was an internship in my third year and at that point, it was . I got maybe the best thing that was offered to me, and at that point, it was helping support the accounts department, as an intern of one of the quasi government companies in Dubai. So I did not get a finance internship.
And then, when I started working, it was September . So the recession had just happened, there were few jobs, and there were fewer finance jobs. And even the ones that were there, needed experience. And the ones that did not need experience, there were so many other people applying for the same job. I remember that I went for an interview at P&G as a finance analyst and there were maybe other candidates there, and everybody was really phenomenal. So it was one position, but they had shortlisted kids that were really good. I did not have the luxury to wait for a job offer. So I graduated in June of and I started working in August. I really needed to start earning and get out there, and there were more accounting jobs than finance jobs. So, that coupled with not really having a very clear career path, or at least in my head, not knowing what I want my career to look like…all of that coupled with having really no work experience apart from just one internship, landed me in an accounting job, not by choice, but as a consequence of circumstances. And my own lack of preparedness. I wouldn't blame circumstances.
Binod:
Interesting! Your situation was a combination of just bad timing, global financial crisis, and , , . And, of course, like you said, lack of professional clarity on your end…
Saiyida:
That was the biggest I would say, factor.
Binod:
…which in retrospect, it would have made you focus on the right areas; but lesson learnt. Let's fast forward to the postgraduate part, which is the CFA qualification or the CFA charter. Now, we had this chat some time ago, and you said that the idea to start the CFA journey came a little later to you after graduation, and after working in accounting for a while. So tell me about what motivated you to start the CFA journey? Or who?
Saiyida:
Yes! So after I started working, I really did not want to work in accounts. But, I was working because I got the job, I needed whatever money I was getting. And then it just so happened that even the other subsequent two jobs that I did, were also in accounts. So when it was my second job, that's when I was really at my end, and I was thinking that I cannot have my career progress in this way, where I'm not happy with the work I'm doing. There are people who are passionate and want to be accountants, but that's not me! So, I knew that something had to change because with my experience, and with my background, I'm still getting accounting job offers, or at least, those are the ones that I get called back from. So really, my initial plan after graduation, or after doing my undergraduate, was that I'll work for a few years and then I'll go to Canada. That's how Dubai kids are, right? Like, I'll go to Canada for an MBA, and then maybe I'll stay there or come back, I don't know.
But, that did not work out. There were monetary issues, and because the jobs that I got were not really very high-paying jobs. It was really between AED a month to AED a month, varying between those. So that's not enough to live and then also save. So, I did my GMAT, got my admission letter, everything happened, but, I never had the funds that you would need to move countries and to go live in a new place and start there. However, that unfolded, and then I was kind of bummed out for a few months. But then I was thinking, what can I do now? And then at that point, my boss's boss was a CFA charter holder and he was the head of investments at the insurance company that I was working on. So I saw what he would be doing and that was mostly corporate finance. And I thought that's interesting. He looks at more of the planning and analysis, what's going to be the return on investment, all of that stuff. So, at least looking at him and observing him, I thought, if this is what a finance degree or being a CFA charter holder entails, then I want to do that. I want my career path to look something like his.
And then a little rewind from there. So, one of my professors at AUS, Dr Zouheir Jarkass, works at Mubadala investments now, but he used to be a finance professor back when it was probably or when I took this course, and he was a huge CFA proponent. He would tell all of his finance students that at least attempt level one and then see what you want to do, because you may like the material you read. It's going to open up a lot of doors, so give it a try. I was quite driven during that class. But then after that class, I never really thought about CFA. I just thought about doing an MBA…and that's just what I was going to do. But it kind of stuck in my mind.
Now working at this insurance company, and my boss's boss, who was a charter holder, it was probably the extra push that I needed. And I thought, the MBA stuff is not working out, I cannot just keep sulking about it, or just keep continuing in the current career path that I am in, something has to change. And that's when I took the leap and I decided that I will start the CFA journey. I have it in me, I know what I want my career path to look like, or at least I have a better idea now. So that's when I registered for level one. I would say in hindsight, the Canada thing not working out, really gave me the push. And it was like, I have no other options, but to do all of my exams and become a CFA charter holder. I was extremely, extremely driven. They say driven people are sometimes crazy, right? So I was driven to the point of craziness, but in a positive way, not in a creepy way.
Binod:
Yeah, that's quite fascinating, because of how a role model at work influenced you to take up this program.
Saiyida:
Yeah, and I was thinking if he was not a CFA charter holder, maybe my CFA journey would have been delayed a few more years. So yeah, it helps to have those role models for sure.
Binod:
Of course, when you talk about the CFA program, every man and his uncle in town would automatically, immediately say, it's tough, it's vast, it's complex, and failure rates are high. So, since you've been to the program, and I'm sure lots of my listeners are currently candidates and going through the program, what are three key hacks that you employed to crack the CFA exams?
Saiyida:
Okay, I would say that, first, know why you want to do it. It should not be something that you're doing because it looks nice, it looks good on a CV, or it's just in their certification you need. I mean that’s not how it is. You may be able to do it then but I would say from my own experience, and from what little I know, that's not a good enough reason to become a CFA charter holder. So having that purpose in mind, and having a clear vision in mind gives you the drive, and it keeps you going even on days where it becomes too much and you're just drained and low on energy It just gives you that mental focus and the drive to start with the program, to continue it, and to take it to completion. So just having that clear picture in mind is very important: why you want to do it, and what value is it going to add to your life or to your career path?
Coming to the hacks, I will say that, “Start early”. So, I know, there are some folks that study for three months and they can pass level one, and then they can pass level two. But what worked for me is, I'm more consistent. I need more time to prepare and to get all the study done with the immense amount of material that you have to study for all of the CFA exams and to really study it properly. It's not just about going through the Schweser books or going through whatever the revision material is. It's good to go through even the curriculum books and to really, really understand, and to enjoy, and to learn the concepts. It's not about passing an exam, it's about knowing the material and that takes time. So I would say, “Start early, and at least five to six months before the exam. At least start opening the books and reading it, and doing all of that”.
So yes, starting early was one hack. I got professional classes for all of my levels and that was very helpful for me. Some people like to study at their own pace but for me having those classes- it gave me more structure. It kept me on track and it also gave me a good community of other students that were going through the same journey. So, it didn't feel like I was alone. It got me connected to people like you, so that's good.
Also, over-prepare. That's also very important. They say that you have to study hours for an exam. All of those are just averages, but I think I put in maybe hours or more for every exam. Even the other folks that I've talked to, that have cleared at least level one and level two in probably their first attempt, say that just study whatever time you get. And also, over-preparing kind of helps you just calm the nerves. Whatever possible questions can come your way, you're probably prepared for any of those. So yes, I would say that not focusing on that I only need to study hours or how many-ever hours. Just study as much as you can because you would rather over-prepare and then pass. Because I know people who have failed and they were probably just very close to the passing grade and that hurts. So better over-prepare and pass rather than being a little under the passing grade.
And then also for me, social life…I put a hard limit or a hard stop, and that was a bit aggressive! Not everybody needs to do that, but that worked for me. And also, I was of the mindset that I have to do this, there is no other option. I want my career path to change and that is the most important thing right now. All social events, all weddings, I can make up for it in a year, in three years or so. So, just knowing your priorities and knowing which social events you can just let go of. If it's your sister's wedding, you may want to go for that. But anything else can wait and it's okay!
Saiyida:
From my side, I even told my close friends and my family that these exams are very, very important for me. So, understand if I tell you that I cannot come out now, or I cannot come to see you. Living in Dubai, something is always happening, somebody is always visiting, there is always something happening. So I understand the plight of all the students and all the folks that are in Dubai, and it's not easy. But if not totally, pause your social life, at least limit it because that's very important. The CFA exam and the material is your number one priority! I will caveat that now I'm married and have a kid, I'm talking about folks who are single. For people who are married and who have other responsibilities and who have multiple kids or one kid, their journey may look like something else. They may not need six months, they may need eight months because they can only do so much studying in a day. So that differs. But for folks that are single, maybe married but don't have kids, there's no excuse! Just get it done.
Binod: Yeah, so that is also quite useful. Especially given the fact that people have to juggle between family work and studies. So, it's a bit elastic how much time you require. Now, of course, I'm not finished talking about CFA exam hacks, because, although you passed level one and two in first attempts, you stumbled in level three, which is not as uncommon as it sounds. Because, I think, level three is the most underestimated, and yet the most different in terms of scope, curriculum, and format, compared to the two earlier levels. And hence, people underestimate the exam and failure results. But tell us what exactly happened in your case and why?
Saiyida:
So, level one and level two I passed in the first attempt. Level two, I was actually surprised because even the night before the exam I was panicking. I had studied everything, done all the practice but I was still thinking that there is so much I don't know. So level two, luckily, or through preparedness, I passed in the first attempt. After I passed level two, there was a sigh of relief! I started to become overconfident and also started to think that I am probably smart enough to pass all of these three levels that people say are so difficult, but I passed in my first attempt. Some ego started to kick in. We all have an ego, but sometimes it starts to surface and then we have to tame it down a little bit. But I, maybe, fed my ego. And I was thinking I'm done with / of the journey, it’s just one exam that is left. And people say the second level is the hardest one! So if I've done that, then I don't need to study for six months for level three. So, there was some of that ego and overconfidence.
Also, when I think about this question, I think there was also some level of exhaustion that was there, where I did need a break because I had limited my social life. The CFA exam was the center of my life for these two-plus years. At some level, I did need a break and I did not recognize that. Even when I started my classes and even when I started reading the books, I was not as driven and committed as I was in levels one and two, wherein level one and two I would study before class, I would study after class. Usually, during the weekdays I would have three hours allotted to studying and there was nothing that could come in between, totally nothing at all! And level three, some days I would study, some days I would go out with my friends. I think I was missing my social life as well, so I started to relax a bit, became overconfident, went out meeting my friends, and did all of that. I think, also on a deeper level, I was a bit satisfied with myself and I was thinking that “I set a goal for myself, and I'm almost there. So, I'm proud of you!” I was giving myself that self-talk.
Also, prior to that point, I'd never really thought about marriage or settling down because I thought I cannot afford to get into a relationship, to get married because I won't be a happy person if I don't have my career. But, after I cleared level two, I started to go out more, started to meet friends, even thought about dating and it’s okay to be in a relationship. Also, I think at some level I wanted to be in a relationship or to be married. So I started to think about that aspect of life a bit more than I did in the past. And in the same year, I passed level two, I met my husband (my now-husband) and we started talking, getting to know each other. So obviously, I got distracted! So all of that coupled together was a recipe for not passing level three.
Binod:
Now we get to this very fascinating change in career, in location, everything, right. I mean, you got married in Dubai and immigrated to the US, to Oklahoma City of all places. Then what happened was stunning because with zero experience in investments and with zero work experience in the US, you, a young Pakistani woman was hired by an established wealth management firm as a portfolio management associate. Now, I've got two questions here for you. First question, how did you finally get an interview?
Saiyida:
Okay, so, I would say if I were to narrow it down to just one reason, and one big reason, it was networking! I had applied for jobs online and never really heard back. I had applied for the same job that I have now on LinkedIn or on online platforms and I never got a response. So I heard about a local CFA society and they were having an event. In the past I had not gone to those events thinking that I don't have a job, I don't want to go there, and everybody has a job, and I don't have one. So, I didn't have the confidence to go. But, for one of the luncheons, I did go. Being in Oklahoma City, the society was fairly small, so I think at that luncheon there were maybe people. A good opportunity to network and really get a chance to talk to almost everybody there. At that luncheon, I met a lady who was in her mid-management career at a very, very huge bank in Oklahoma City. She and I were the only ladies over there.
So we got talking and she asked me what my plan is? What I was doing? I told her some of my background. For whatever reason, she was very very helpful and I think she's genuinely a very good person, very helpful person. She's gone through a similar journey when she was new to Oklahoma City, as she is of East European origin and not originally from the US or Oklahoma City. So, she knew the difficulties an expat or somebody who's not from here can face in the job market. She asked me to send her my resume and she tried at her bank, and she tried at some other places. They said that since I don't have any US experience, it's gonna be very difficult, so I did not get the job. But then she also introduced me to some of the folks at my current company and we got talking and they liked the small conversation that we had.
And, I got a call-back for an Associate Portfolio Manager position! The same position that I had applied for online a few months ago and never got a call-back. So, I would say that just having that personal connection, meeting folks face to face, networking, really goes a long way. I was never a proponent of networking as I'm very shy, introverted, just a very sensitive person, and networking was always very overwhelming for me. But, after what happened in Oklahoma City, I am a huge, huge proponent of networking! I would say that that is the biggest reason why I got the job without having any US experience, or actually any wealth management experience.
Binod:
Yeah, if there's ever a testimonial in favor of networking, this should be it! What you just said now, the last few minutes.
Saiyida:
Yeah, people think that networking is to put up a show! It's just about telling people about yourself, being interested in what they have to say, and learning about other people. So just be yourself and you'll connect with the people that resonate with you.
Binod:
Yeah. So now, of course, you told me about the networking part. Still, I don't understand why did they hire you, despite your lack of credentials, qualifications, or experience? I mean, you just came from the UAE, completely new to the US. So why?
Saiyida:
I would say that one reason was CFA did play a huge role because, by that point, I had passed level three. I was not a charter holder but I had passed level three. There were not a lot of folks that were applying for that Associate Portfolio Manager position that had either the charter or were on the way to becoming charter holders. They had received some applications from level one candidates or level two maybe, but none of them had passed level three. So I think that was one differentiating factor. The other one was, there are not a lot of women CFA charter holders so I think that played some role. Everybody wants diversity, everybody wants that their investment team is not just made up of all men. It should be a good mix so that their ideas can flow and there is some diversity of thought as well. So that would have been another reason.
And then, I would say the biggest reason, even after I got hired I talked to the President “why me? And why not the other probably very well qualified, if not qualified at least ones that had good experience, relevant experience? Why was I hired over them?” The answer I got was that they saw that I would be a good cultural fit in the organization. And also, my soft skills or my communication skill stood out amongst others. Some of the analytical skills or some of the job-related skills can be learned on the job but having a good base of soft skills, or how you communicate, how you listen, or how you articulate an idea is very important. And those are the skills that are a bit more difficult to teach or take longer to teach or learn. So that stood out! I would say that was one of the big factors.
Binod:
Right, I'm actually impressed by the thought of you being selected because of your soft skills and confidence. Having known you for quite some time now…. (that's the point that we will come back to in a later question in this podcast).
Meanwhile, let's talk about your career progression, right. The pace of your career progress did not end or slow there! Because lo and behold you got another career break in the same firm a few months later when you were promoted to Portfolio Manager, with barely what, three months experience working before that, maybe as an admin assistant? So you now had the exciting role of actually managing the portfolio of a few clients. You quickly went from back-office functionary to trusted client-facing advisor, managing the large multi-asset portfolio of multimillionaires! How the hell did that happen especially since you're so inexperienced and you told me they could have easily, for example, got talent from other branches of this same big company?
Saiyida:
Yeah, so I was hired as an Associate Portfolio Manager and there were two other portfolio managers in the Oklahoma City office. My job basically entailed supporting and helping the portfolio managers do their job. So you're right, I was doing a lot of the back office stuff. I would sit in a few client meetings, but not as the primary portfolio manager that would do the presentation, I would sit in just to observe and learn. Then I think in my first three months, I probably got two or three meetings to sit on where I was the one presenting, and that was predominantly because the other portfolio managers were off-site, or they were traveling for a client meeting, or they had other more pressing needs that came up. So I did get some client-facing exposure.
And then, within the first couple of months or two and a half months, the two portfolio managers got other better positions that were offered to them. They took those job offers, and it just so happened that both of them left within a week of each other. So from having two portfolio managers we were down to zero Portfolio managers and just one associate. So yes! That was a difficult time because it takes a little bit of time to hire a portfolio manager and to see if he or she would be good for the organization or not. But, I will say that the credit here really goes to the head of investments and the management of my company, because they did put a lot of trust in me and they told me that “We are hiring a portfolio manager or senior portfolio manager, but it will take time. In the meanwhile, you'll have support from other offices, but you're going to be the one who's going to be leading or handling most of the portfolio management duties, whether it's trading, asset allocation, client meetings, doing performance reports, you will do it. If you think that there is a need to call in somebody else from another office because a client may be too difficult to handle, or it's a very complicated account, then yes, we'll send in resources, but we'll lean on you!”
So, that really gave me the confidence and a lot of responsibility on my shoulders, to the point that I would be thinking, “Yes, I cannot mess this up”. And even at that point, I thought that “It's a difficult time, but this is the opportunity that I was waiting for. If I can do this right, then my career path can accelerate quite quickly”. So, yes! I always say that change is good, there is a lot of learning, and a lot of evolution that happens because of change. So even at that moment, even in the middle of the storm, I was more excited than nervous! I wouldn't have become a portfolio manager if this would not have happened. After that happened, and after three or four months more, when they hired a senior portfolio manager (even at that point), the book of business was split between us because I was promoted to a portfolio manager as I had done a good job and they were happy with how I was serving clients, how I was presenting and doing my work. So yes, had those changes not happened, it may have been another two years or so before I was promoted to a portfolio manager. So change is good.
Binod:
Right, now I love to compare and contrast culture, especially work culture. You have now worked in at least two very contrasting cultures from what you told me, in the Middle East and the US. Now, you told me in an earlier conversation that after living in theUAE for so long, and also traveling to bigger cities in the US, like New York, the culture in Oklahoma City, both at work and outside work struck you as highly unusual. Yet, you connected with it as never before! I've got three questions here.
What are the key elements of the culture in Oklahoma that were remarkable?
Saiyida:
Okay, I did not know what Oklahoma City would be like when I came here. But it's the people that make the city! Some of the key qualities or some of the key elements of the community I would say is that they're very, very humble. There is quite a bit of wealth in Oklahoma City (in Oklahoma in general) and a lot of it is generational wealth. There is also new wealth there or wealth that may be one generation old. I mean, I've met a lot of wealthy people through my work because we do cater to high net-worth individuals and families. But, I would say % of them are so down to earth, so humble, that if I saw them at a grocery store or somewhere else, I would not think that this person has a multi-million dollar portfolio! So that was quite a contrast from Dubai.
I would also say that they're very, very culture and family-oriented, which is similar to how our South Asian culture is. So, that was a little close to home. They like to stay close to their parents, they like to have bigger families, and be around their kids and their grandkids. So yes, that family, strong cultural bonds are there! There's an example, it was my first Thanksgiving after I started work, and the CEO of our company asked me if I and my husband had any plans. I just told him that we don't have any family around so we're just gonna order in or go watch a movie or something like that. And then, to my surprise, he invited me and my husband over to his place for a Thanksgiving feast, and we got to spend Thanksgiving with his family, his cousins, other relatives, and neighbors. So that's a testament to how welcoming and how genuinely nice people are there!
And yes, my third point is that they're very helpful, extremely warm, extremely welcoming. From the lady that helped me network and get a job to my CEO who invited me for a Thanksgiving meal, to all of my co-workers who have been phenomenal and all of the other friends I met through, some of the non-profit groups and some of the networking groups have been exceptional! So it's great. People are very down-to-earth, very humble, very kind. You see that in Dubai as well, but it's just that Dubai is a more fast-paced city, so you don't see it as much as I saw it in Oklahoma City.
Binod:
So that was my next question. How does the experience that you had in Oklahoma City contrast with what you experienced or saw happening at work in the UAE?
Saiyida:
I would say management or leadership style is one. A lot of the leaders that I saw in Oklahoma City, whether they were community leaders, or whether leaders on the corporate side, they do believe in servant leadership. And so, it's more inclusive, it's more people-focused than being corporate-focused. That's a little different. I'm sure there's certain leadership in UAE as well but from what I've seen, I so more of it in Oklahoma City. So that was one!
And even in Dubai, because it's a more cutthroat work environment, your status in Dubai or living in Dubai as an expat is very much dependent on the kind of job you do, your work visa, and all of that. So I understand why the aggressiveness is there. Yet, it's there! And it makes the work culture a little bit toxic as well, especially if you're lower down in the food chain. So yes, if you're management level then it's all good but I would say a lot of the aggressiveness is experienced by people lower down in the corporate ladder. And then, I also saw some of the folks in management that would maybe not treat their employees as nice as they should, because they were too focused on their own work, or just making it good with their own bosses, just maybe blaming their subordinates for a job that was not done. So, it wasn't a very healthy work environment that I saw in Dubai. And for whatever reason, I mean, there could be multiple reasons Oklahoma City was a bit more people-oriented, more holistic, less materialistic as well I would say. In Dubai, I saw my co-workers or some of the other folks maybe talking about a fancy car that somebody would be driving. And those things don't matter! Those things are not the work discussions that you should be having. So, more holistic, slower-paced, servant leadership, are the differentiating factors that I saw workwise in Oklahoma City versus in Dubai.
Binod:
Interesting, because I have not worked in the US or Europe so I'm always curious about what people's opinions are when they work in multiple cultures and I'm sure it's not the same experience, but I'm keen to know what the differences are.
Right, so now let's talk about your personal transformation, which is something that I have witnessed and I have been very curious about. The first time we had a proper conversation was probably in mid-Jan , last month, via zoom. And, I was quite taken aback, delighted of course, by the latest version of Saiyida Zainab Gardezi, and had to regularly remind myself that I was talking to you! Because the last time I saw you as a student in my CFA prep class in Dubai, probably around , you were a very different person. You were painfully shy, you didn’t engage at all, you never asked me anything, never answered any question. And then, suddenly I'm seeing this remarkably confident, articulate, and self-aware person. So, the first thing that pops into my mind when I see transformations like this, and I've seen quite a few, is there must be a story behind it. People don't change just like that! So two very important questions for you.
Number one, tell me if you can, why you were so withdrawn for so many years?
And number two, more crucially, what drove the big change that I can clearly see now?
Saiyida:
I think I was always a very shy, introverted, sensitive person. So being withdrawn or not being the one asking questions in class came very naturally to me. I would actually need to go out of my comfort zone to do any kind of public speaking. So yes, shyness is in my nature I would say, and it’s very normal for me to just sit and read or just do my own thinking, let others ask the questions and I just listen and learn from them. That comes very naturally to me. And, I think my mom is that way also, so some of it is a bit genetic, probably!
However, the big change that you say that has happened is that now I’m not anxious or I’m not nervous when I talk to strangers, when I do public speaking, or when I talk on a platform like this. So I would say, just getting the opportunity to exercise those public speaking and confidence muscles was what drove the change.
Even back in Dubai or even when I was in college, I realized this lack of confidence or this not being articulate enough, not being able to voice my thoughts on a public platform. Iin college whenever we would have public speaking, or as a project presentation or something, I would get extremely nervous and I would ask somebody else to do it, or I would freeze. It was extreme! At that point, I realized that this will come in the way of my professional career growth. So I had the recognition back when I was in your class or back when I was in college but I did not do much about it. I should have been the one in class at least asking some questions. That was a good platform, I could have exercised my confidence muscle back then.
But, it was only after I came to Oklahoma City (it was a new place for me) I had to go out, meet people, and network and then I got a job. Almost % of that job was as an Associate Portfolio Manager… A portfolio manager revolves around doing presentations, talking to different clients, which can range from families to individuals, to bank boards, to non-profit boards, anything and everything. So a multitude of client bases! So yes, getting the opportunity to do that, that's what I would say brought the change. In the beginning, I was probably not as good, but over time I did work on it. And, I did realize that the more I do it the better I will get and there's no other way! There are no amount of books I can read that will make me a good public speaker. So yes, getting that opportunity through work and being in a new environment where I was kind of forced to do it. I had lived in Dubai for years so in Dubai I was a bit more at ease.
Also, I got involved in some community work being in Oklahoma City. I got involved in some women centric non-profit organizations, and there was also an arts organization that I was a treasurer of. And being a treasurer, I had to give quarterly financial reports to the board. So that was another opportunity where I would get to flex my public speaking confidence muscle. It's a muscle! The more you work on it, the better it gets, the more you ask for feedback, the more you'll know and that's what I did. I would always ask for feedback from folks that were in the meeting. To ask them “Was I too fast? Or was I too slow? Did I lose the audience? Where can I improve?” It wasn't a tactic on my end. I was genuinely hungry for feedback because I had never done that before, so I did not know if I was doing a good job or I was just screwing it up. So yes, feedback and then receiving genuine feedback, and sometimes I would ask specific questions, “Did I do this part correctly? Or did I answer that question from the client or not?” So asking those specific questions, and then genuinely focusing on the feedback and then working on it! The change compounded but it was a small and gradual change after I moved here.
Binod:
Yeah, well all I can say is a brilliant job! Because I think it’s at the least a testament to how focus and determination can really turn one's personality around, despite what you may have been earlier, which in your case was an introvert. I'm sure you're still substantially introverted but I think you have now learned to rise to the occasion and grab opportunities. So that's fantastic!
Saiyida:
Yes, yeah!
Binod:
My next question is related to culture, which is something again I keep coming back to whether it is office culture or national culture or something. Now, what is fascinating is that you bloomed in Oklahoma City, outside work as well as you mentioned, and found time to get involved in a few non-profits including one related to women's empowerment. So it turns out we have something else in common apart from the CFA program. Because the last-mentioned i.e. women’s empowerment is a topic, as you probably know, connects with me for many reasons and drives me nuts as well. Not the least being, the way millions of women are treated in deeply conservative, pervasively sexist, highly patriarchal societies like India and Pakistan. So I know you mentioned about your dad and how he encouraged you earlier. But, I want to hear more details of how come you didn't go the other way and ended up as a bland, quiet, and compliant housewife with many kids in tow.
Saiyida:
I would say that people are a product of their upbringing and environment, upbringing being the most predominant factor. So, there's no hiding it, no tiptoeing around it that Indian and Pakistani society as a whole, there are families that may be different, but as a whole, the society is heavily patriarchal! And there is a lot of focus on women just getting married and there is not enough focus on women getting educated or heaven forbid having a career. So, I would say that growing up in that culture, there is no running away from it…. There is no way that my parents could have sheltered me completely and withdrawn me from all of those opinions, it just does not happen. And even after moving to Dubai, the cultural roots or the cultural impact that we get from or what we see in Indian or Pakistani households may be slightly different, but still, that patriarchal undertone is still there.
So, I would say the biggest reason is that my parents provided me with some counter-narrative. (Even though my mom was a housewife so it was not that I saw my mom working and I aspired to be that way.) It was just that my parents provided and gave enough importance to my education, as well as my brother's education, that I grew up with some equality mindset. And, also I grew up with my dad saying, “You should always work and earn your own money”. I mean, dads don't say that, at least, Pakistani and Indian dads. Being a very sensitive impressionable kid, I grew up with the mindset that that's what I'm going to do, I will have a career and I will have a career that will be important! It's not going to be just a time filler or something for me. It's important for me! So I need to focus on it.
So yes, I will say that upbringing played a huge role. Had my upbringing been different, my life would have transpired in a much different way. I may have been just a timid housewife or just somebody who does not have a career, somebody who did not get to fulfill her aspirations or wishes and is probably unhappy about it. Yeah, so nothing wrong with being a housewife, as long as it's your own decision. And a lot of times in our culture it's not! It's a decision that is imposed on you or it's a decision that because of a lack of options given to you, is what you end up doing. So yes, upbringing I would say is one!
And then, even having a partner or having a spouse that cares about or that supports and encourages my career progression and my career path. We don't get to choose our parents, but we sort of get to choose our spouses, or we should get to choose our spouses! Even in arranged marriages, you have some choice. It's not imposed on you. So you do have some say in it. So yes, having a partner who is encouraging and does because my current job also involves travel. He does step up and take charge when I'm not around. So yes, having that support system is very important. We know the society is patriarchal, it's not going to change overnight and we know that there is not enough importance given to women’s education.
So whatever pockets of support as women that we can find in our society, is extremely, extremely helpful! If you're not getting it from your parents, and if you want to get married then please focus on finding somebody that will not only support but actually uplift you and encourage you to do more with your education and to do more with your career.
Saiyida:
So yes, sadly even I would say, in the last few years or so I have not seen a lot of progression as a society, if anything we're probably going backwards. So there's all the more pressure on the women to just do whatever they can, and wherever they get the opportunity to do so. And lean into your anger and aggression that we have as women living in a patriarchal society, there's no reason to hide it. There's no reason to hide your passion. So just focus more inward, and focus on what you want your life to look like. And, just take some focus away from marriage, because society puts a lot of pressure on marriage and that can wait. Just focus on your career first. Marriage is a part of life that may happen or may not happen, but If you want it to happen, it will happen for you. But focus on your career first, because that cannot wait! As time passes, it becomes even more difficult to do. After you get married, you may have kids or not, so it's not possible to build a career at that point or it becomes very, very difficult.
Binod:
I hear you on that last point very strongly because quite a few of my former CFA students, women, have for whatever reason put their careers on hold by getting married and having kids. And that has had consequences, negative consequences. Not sure whether they were okay with the trade-off, but like you said, “It's difficult to start a career after you've started a family” and I suppose your priorities and objectives were very clear earlier on. And even if you do have career objectives, like you said, “Have someone supportive in your life”.
Now, I want to talk about something very personal, Saiyida, and yet quite important to many listeners of this podcast. I'm so glad, really, that you're ready to talk about it. And, this is the issue of mental health and depression. Now you told me, you were kind to share with me, that you suffered postpartum depression for a while after the birth of your son Nyle. I've got quite a few important questions here.
First is, how does this depression manifest itself so that people can understand signs of this and pick up on it?
Saiyida:
For me, it was being very mentally and physically drained! And you would expect that after giving birth. Having this huge change in your life you would be physically drained. But it was more than. It was not the physical exhaustion that you would expect your body to go through if you've had a tough day or you were working nonstop or whatnot. It was more than that! I could even at that point tell that it is the mental or psychological drain that's impacting me physically. So, that was one, just having mental exhaustion.
And then, also becoming more withdrawn. I am introverted, but I do like my social life, I do like to go see my friends and have a heart-to-heart with them. But at that point, I did not want to talk to a lot of people, probably did not want to talk to anybody, and just did not want to have a conversation. So I would say that yes, being mentally drained and just being very very withdrawn, being very short tempered, being very agitated, being very reactive were the symptoms initially.
Binod:
Right. Now of course you are mostly free of depression and that's fantastic. How exactly did you deal with it?
Saiyida:
In the first six months or so I just thought “it's a phase, it will pass”. So I thought I'll manage it. Usually, this kind of depression or something like that, not always, but a lot of times can come because of change. That's one of the reasons why women go through postpartum depression because a huge change has happened in their life, apart from the hormonal changes going on in their body. Then at that point, another change was happening in my life where I was moving from Oklahoma City to Houston because my husband got another job. So I was moving to Houston in the middle of COVID, and then I would have to work remotely because my company did not have a Houston office. They were kind enough to say that I could just work remotely and right after the move, COVID started. So yes, at that point that change aggravated the depression and now there was some level of anxiety as well, which at the time I did not know. At that point, I did not even know what anxiety is. It was only after I started talking to my therapist, that she explained, “yes, you're having a depressive phase but couple that with anxiety as well which is making it worse!”
So yes, after the move to Houston, (so this was probably after having six-seven months of being depressed or going through postpartum depression) that was the point where I decided that I need external help. And that was because I was still mentally and physically exhausted! I could only do the bare minimum. I could do my job and I could take care of my kid but anything other than that (exercising, going out) I could not, and I did not want to. I would just sleep as much chance as I got. So I realized that that's not sustainable, something has to change. If it hasn't changed in six-seven months, then let's just talk to somebody. And then, my husband again was super supportive, he kept pushing me that just talk to somebody and we need to talk to a professional. That's when I started to reach out and look at therapists in the area that had expertise in postpartum and I found a really nice therapist to talk to. So yes, that helped! Then also, I was doing a lot of stuff on my own as well, reading up about it, just trying to understand it more and how I can not make it worse. So yes, I was doing a lot of that on the side as well, along with talking to a professional probably twice a month.
Binod:
Now one of the issues that someone with mental health problems goes through apart from the mental health problem itself is how other people, how society perceives mental health issues like anxiety and depression which probably makes the situation worse. What in your view are the few key things that most normal people don't get about depression that they should understand?
Saiyida:
I think one of the biggest things (the two points that I will say will always come from folks that have zero experience with any kind of mental health issue) is that people will equate being sad with being depressed. And both of those things cannot be more opposite from each other.
Being sad is just an emotional state you go through. So if my friend is leaving town then I'll be sad about it but I will not be depressed! There's no one-to-one correlation between being depressed and there being a reason for it. A lot of times, there are a multitude of reasons. So you cannot pinpoint that I am depressed because of XYZ. And if you fix XYZ, then I'm okay! So yes, being sad and being depressed are two different things.
Depression can come from a multitude of reasons, whether it's generational, whether it is some kind of trauma that you went through in your childhood and now it's surfacing in terms of emotions because you never dealt with it in the past. It can be environmental as well and it can be all of those reasons combined.
So we need to really bridge, and I would say the responsibility lies with people who go through any kind of mental health issue and also people who have not gone through it. So the gap has to be bridged!
And people who have not gone through it need to read up on some of the emotional health, holistic health books and there are a lot of great books that I read. So while I was going through it, I read some of the good ones that stick out are: How to do the work, The highly sensitive person, Atomic habits, Think like a monk, The Body Keeps the Score, and there are many others, especially now, they're even podcasts, TEDx and Ted talks, and all of that on depression. So, people who haven't gone through it, please read up on it, understand it better before making any comments like this, and then people who have gone through it don't need to be shy about it or they don't need to hide it! Just own it, talk about it and it's okay! Things happen in life. That's what makes life so vibrant and amazing, that you go through different phases in your life, and this was just one part of your life. It doesn't define you, so just talk about it and be open about it.
And, the other thing I would say is kind of linked to the previous one, where people say (again people who have not gone through it would say this) things like, just snap out of it or focus on the good and it'll be all better, stuff like that! And that kind of implies that being depressed is a choice and if the person who is depressed makes a different choice, then he or she will become better somehow. So, refrain from making such comments because nobody wants to be depressed. It's not a choice! Yes, there are multitude of reasons underlying it and those reasons need to be looked at. It's just probably your body and your mind’s way of telling you that you've neglected me now just focus on it.
Binod:
Now, of course, you know that mental health issues such as depression are spreading fast, especially among the young and especially during these tough pandemic times. And I've noticed that because a lot of youngsters reach out to me on LinkedIn, email and share stories of their mental health issues which not only destroys happiness, but it's such a tragic waste of potential. What would you advise young people who are suffering from depression to do?
Saiyida:
Okay, so I totally hear you there. I mean, there are a lot of young people, especially in a different time now versus when I was young. Social media wasn't there, I did not have a cell phone up until I was in th grade or something. So yes, it's a different world. Mental health issues especially after COVID have become very, very common and you're wasting potential if you're spending time being depressed or not working on it.
So, I would say from my experience what helped me and what I would recommend really to young people, or just anyone who is going through similar symptoms or going through depression would be to read.
One would be read! Just read up on it, listen to audiobooks, or listen to podcasts. Now, post-COVID, there is so much content on YouTube. One, it will not make you feel alone. You will feel that these thoughts or these emotions that I'm feeling, other people, have gone through similar or much worse! So there is no reason to be shy about it or there's no reason to feel reclusive just because of those feelings that you're having. Read up on it, listen to these audiobooks, and it will also help you understand your emotions a little better. It will help you understand that you are different from your emotions or you are not your emotions essentially. Even, when I'm talking to myself, and if I'm feeling angry, rather than saying I am angry, I tell myself that I'm feeling angry. So, you are feeling your emotion, you are not defined or your personality is not defined by your emotion. And that kind of makes you think that emotions or feelings are more transitory in nature, they'll come and they'll pass and they don't have to stay with you forever. So yes, that comes with just reading up on mental health and your emotional state a bit more.
And then, I would also say that writing helps. So anybody especially who's going through postpartum, you do get some depressive phases where there would be moments in your day or in your week where you feel extremely, extremely low, and you don't feel like doing anything. You may just be having a lot of depressive thoughts. So at that point, rather than just engaging with your thoughts in your head, it's good to engage with your thoughts on paper. So write it down because that writing helps you explore those thoughts and those emotions more. And it helps you even come back to it later, and read it. And then, even after you've made some progress, even after a few months or a year, you can come back and see what state of mind you were in and how much progress you've made! Also, if you're seeking external help then writing helps because it helps you explain the state you were in, to your psychologist or therapist a lot better. And writing it helps you understand yourself more, so it's good to write! If you're going through a depressive phase or if there's a moment in time where you feeling extremely low, just make good use of it and write it!
And then, this one is a little difficult to do but once you start working on your journey with coping with depression or postpartum depression, at some point it is good to start giving your life more structure. Have some things in your day that you do regardless and that makes you connect with yourself a bit more. So for me, once I started working on it I was less drained physically and mentally. Then I got the energy to even go out and exercise and go to the gym. For me, going to the gym, exercising, going for a walk was very therapeutic and very helpful. Reading was very good for me. So I would do those things that provided some structure in my life. I know for some people it could be yoga, meditation, cooking is therapeutic, trying out a new recipe. So just try to add more structure to your life once you start working on it, working on your depression journey.
Saiyida:
And then, also don't be rigid! I know there are some people who are against medication and some who are pro.
Just be open to any and all solutions, and recognize that depression is caused by a multitude of reasons. Therefore, the way to deal with it or the way to cure it would also have to come from (or the solution will need to come from) a multitude of sources. You can start trying to work on it yourself and then if that doesn't help, then start talking to a professional. And then once you start talking to a professional, if you don't notice any change then be open to any kind of medication that that professional will recommend. So just don't be rigid, because everyone's depression and their postpartum depression look different. So, just start with yourself, start by yourself, and go to a therapist. And talk therapy is very helpful, so do that for a while. Then you will have the mental clarity to make the decision with your therapist of whether or not you need some kind of external help because sometimes depression can be generational, and it takes a long time to work on those issues. So while you're working on those issues, you may need some external help. Postpartum is slightly easier I would say to deal with, versus if you've had a lot of trauma in the past.
Binod: Wow, Saiyida! That's been quite educational for me. I've interviewed lots of guests, and I can't recall the last time I've learned so much from the guest. Because you have lived through the experience of depression and not only that, I think you have very clearly and concisely and comprehensively talked about the causes, some very interesting cause I never thought about like change could cause depression, causes the symptoms of depression, the treatment of depression, especially like you mentioned about reading, writing and giving some structure to your life. I was like most laypeople, quite ignorant about mental health and had a very superficial understanding and that was reflected in my behavior towards those who had mental health issues, like most of the population on this earth I suspect. But, this has been quite informative education for me.
So thank you for going to depth and answering those four questions of mine. I hope listeners can gain a lot by this virtual mentorship on how to tackle mental illness. Time flies, and now we are in our last question. So yeah, like they say time flies when you're having fun, right!
So based on your experience, Saiyida, what are the top three tips you would give to someone who is about to enter or is already in the earlier years at the workplace?
Saiyida:
I would talk from my experience, and what mistakes I made that I could have done differently. But there was one thing that was always in me, the drive! Which I don't see a lot of now in the young people at work.
So I will say that that would be number one. Have a can-do, can-do, can-do attitude about work. Just take on whatever is being given to you and be hungry for more. Do as much work as you can to the point where people think that if I give some task or some project to this guy or gal, he or she can do it. And I know it will be done on time because this person is very proactive, very active, and gets it done! And in the process ask more questions, just be more inquisitive. So have that attitude! Don't wait for things to come to you. If you're a new person at work and they're not giving you a lot of tasks, because they don't know if you're gonna do a good job or not, just go ask, go to a different department, ask what you can do to help whether you're an intern or new person. So do that if you're a complete newbie.
Then, I will also say, that this was an advice actually given to me fairly recently by a very, very experienced person in my organization. So she said that this is one advice that she would give to a lot of her mentees, “Become a subject matter expert in something related to your job”. So that may not be applicable to somebody who's in there, maybe during the first year of starting their first job. But in your first three years, I would say, try and become a subject matter expert in something related to your job. So with my job, everybody on my investment committee team knows that if they need to talk about ESG investments or sustainable investments, they need to go to Saiyida. So that gives you a boost of confidence as well and then gives you that omnipresence in the organization where people know that if they want to talk about whichever thing related to your job, then you are the person that they will think of. So try and do that!
And then, I will say that the last one would be to network. That's very important! Network within the organization, network outside of the organization, be part of various communities that you can be part of, even if it's not directly related to your job. Like, for instance, when I was a treasurer at an arts organization or an arts non-profit organization in Oklahoma City, arts couldn't be more further from what I did, but I got offered the position. And I was like, “there is no way I will say no to this because I have never done this, I've never been on the board of a non-profit organization, and being a treasurer, I will get to know more about it and I’ll just get a chance to be involved” So yes, sometimes an opportunity can come your way, or just seek an opportunity which may not be related to your work. But then, you’ll get to meet some important folks in the community, you'll get to talk to different people, you will get to talk to people outside of your industry or work and that's very valuable! So yes, early on in your career, just do a lot of networking, have a can-do attitude, and become a subject matter expert.
And, I'll add another one which I see young people do so, I'll just add that. I would be, “Do not complain”! Your job will not be ideal, your work environment may not be ideal or the people. There will be issues but the complaining hurts you more than anything else because then that becomes your mental attitude and that comes in the way. It hinders your productivity at work. If you don't like your work environment, have the thought in your mind that I will make the most of it, gain whatever I can from this, and then look for something else outside. But don't be the one who sits with their friends and complains about their job, especially early on in your career. Maybe years in, you would have had the experience to talk with some kind of assurance or you would have reasons to complain or not, but early on in your career don't be that person!
Binod:
Completely agree with you! I'd like that last point because no mentor, no boss, wants to work with someone who is constantly complaining about something whether it's big or small. And that can get worse as they progress in their career because it's a reflection of a personality trait, probably.
Saiyida:
Yeah, have a solution-based attitude. If you see something that's not working, suggest a change. They may not implement the change, but for sure, your boss or management will appreciate that at least this person came up with a potential solution.
Binod:
Brilliant! That's the perfect ending to what has been a perfect podcast interview, I must say. It's been a pleasure and a privilege, Saiyida, to have interviewed you but also thinking back, quite a pleasure and a privilege to have been part of a tiny part of your journey of transformation overver the last, say six or seven years. This interview has been so fascinating and insightful for me personally, as I mentioned earlier, especially about mental health and a few other issues. And I really want to thank you for taking the time out to think about the answers to these not-so-easy questions as you may have noticed because I always like to get into depth in my interviews. So thank you for being the perfect guest in that respect, thank you for taking the time, and for being totally honest about some very important issues that people rarely talk about but they should! And I compliment you for that. I look forward to seeing your further career progress with huge interest. I'm sure the best is yet to come. So thank you!
Saiyida:
Thank you, Binod! I will say that I have learned a lot from you, just being part of Genesis, and you were one of my mentors or teachers over there. And even though I was fairly shy, and not engaging much. But passively on my side, you may not know this, you did teach me a lot. So, thank you for that! And I'm glad we're in touch. I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to stay in touch because I think you have a lot of wisdom and what you say is very very impactful, especially on a personal side and also on the professional or career side for folks like me or even folks that are very new in their career. So thank you, thank you for being you. Thank you for being brutally honest, all the time. And thank you for teaching us by example, and also by your words and wisdom. Thank you!
Binod:
Thanks, Saiyida!
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This podcast is brought to you by the real finance mentor. Thank you so much for listening and I really hope you found it insightful and inspirational. If you did enjoy this episode, please drop us a review and spread the word. You should check out more exclusive content on therealfinancementor.com and my LinkedIn profile which is: Binod Shankar, FCA, CFA. Let’s keep in touch! Just add your name to the mailing list on therealfinancementor.com, and we’ll tell you about new episodes plus book reviews, upcoming events and blogs. Till the next time, onwards and upwards.
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