Episode 35: Everyone is a work in progress.
A young woman packs her bags, moves to a different country, continent and culture 9,000km from home, starts off as a back-office junior and makes it to CIO. I was instantly attracted to her story.
We talk about the power of relationships and networking, the harsh realities of investment banking (and how it changed her), how to stand out when you don’t have the right creds, asking for that promotion, how to recover from getting fired (twice!), the role of qualifications vs attitude and experience, the many ways by which women self-sabotage, crafting your future no matter what and much more.
Listen, learn, grow.
You can check the entire video episode on youtube or enjoy reading the transcript below.
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Binod Shankar:
This is Binod Shankar and you’re listening to the real finance mentor podcast from the realfinancementor.com. The real finance mentor is your go-to resource for insight and inspiration on careers in finance, CFA and more. Now you might think, why this podcast? Well, my goal is to deliver insight and inspiration for your financial career, by making it, one: relatable. I mean this is not theoretical stuff. We zero-in on the critical, practical issues. Number two: authentic. No bullshit, no side-stepping. The topics, guests and questions are all from that perspective. And number three: insightful. Take a Chartered accountant and a CFA charter holder, add 17-plus years as a corporate warrior, mix in 10-plus years of entrepreneurship, throw in a decade of full time CFA training. Add speaking, mentoring, cycling, mountaineering and other endurance activities, and that’s me! Welcome to The Real Finance Mentor, or as I call it: RFM.
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Binod Shankar
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Hi everyone! This is Binod Shankar here with the real finance mentor podcast, bringing you insight and inspiration for your finance careers. And today I have a guest, who will add a lot of value to your career journey. And the guest is a special guest all the way from Singapore. So let me introduce Kaia Parv to you. Kaia is based in Singapore, as I indicated. She is originally from Estonia, which should interest you because many people haven't heard about that Baltic country. She graduated from there and then she went to Singapore, where she spent nearly six years with Bank of America Merrill Lynch in various positions. She quit that, and joined a foreign exchange house in Europe. And currently, she works with a Fintech startup in Singapore, in the credit lending space; quite exciting, using artificial intelligence and proprietary technology, where she is the Chief Investment Officer- quite a senior person there.
Kaia, of course, is a CFA charter holder, which is, I suppose, quite common to most of my guests on this show. But we're going to talk about a lot of things today, not just finance, we're gonna talk about leadership, women in finance, challenges facing the fairer sex in that that community, how to get a job, networking skills, and a lot more. It's going to be an exciting interview. So welcome on board, Kaia!
Kaia:
Binod, thank you so much for having me! Super excited to be here. And welcome to all the listeners and viewers.
Binod: I want to start off with what is to me an obvious question. What on earth made you fly across half the world from Estonia, in the far northern Europe, to Singapore, a place that's also climatically, and culturally very different from where you came from? I've thought that Western Europe or even Northern America, US, Canada, would have been the more obvious choices.
Kaia:
So, Binod, I graduated back in 2011. And I had this dream of working in finance, maybe going into banking, asset management. And when I graduated, I realized that the 2008 crisis was still ongoing, especially in Eastern Europe, because we are so dependent on the global economy. And there were basically no jobs out there. I started applying for some of the bigger banks in Estonia, such as Swed Bank , SEB, some of the smaller ones. And the feedback I got was, “you're too ambitious, you're going to leave in a couple of months, we don't think that we can train you for that particular job”.
So, at the age of 21, I was quite disappointed. I wanted to work, I wanted to make a difference, but nobody gave me a chance. So, I started doing a bit of research, where to go, what to do, what will be a country that wants foreigners at this point- and Singapore made the most sense because Europe was still in recession, in the US nobody has heard of Estonia (as you rightfully pointed out). So, Singapore just seemed like a nice place. It's warm. It's a multinational, open migration policy at that point. And it just seemed a place where it's easy to go as a foreigner.
Binod:
I mean, you were new to Singapore, Kaia, and you knew no one there and had zero working experience, much less networking in a global bank. But you still got a job in cash management at Bank of America Merrill Lynch, after a few months. So, tell me how that happened.
Kaia:
As you pointed out, again, we had no network. I came with my partner at the time. And once we landed in Singapore, we realised, “Okay, now we actually have to start working”. So, I did have an online gig, which paid some of the bills, but our main focus was network, network, network. I did (I don't want to say hundreds…but) probably 10s off wine tasting networking events.. I tried to get into CFA Society events, almost every week- network, network, network. As I was in Singapore on a tourist visa, I had to do visa runs every 90 days. So it was a bit of a stressful time, to be honest.
But in one of those networking events, I actually met a very nice gentleman who had seen my profile on a webpage and reached out to me, inviting me out. Since I was with somebody I had to refuse very politely, saying, “I apologise, I am already with somebody”. And to my very big surprise, he said, “Oh, I know that you're looking for a job. How about you come for an interview at Bank of America Merrill Lynch”? I was slightly shocked, thinking, “okay, a bit odd, but sure, why not”?
So, I gave him my business card. I had printed my own personal business cards. I did get an invite for an interview, and to my big surprise, I even got the job. I didn't report to him, we were part of the same sort of operations ecosystem. But he never made any moves on me. And I find this important to mention that he was just doing this from his very goodwill. It was an interesting journey for me, because I remember when I went to sign my employment contract, the HR basically laughed in my face, very condescendingly, saying I was underqualified, and it's purely a business decision to take me on for this particular role.
Binod:
Interesting. What does she mean by ‘business decision’? I don't understand.
Kaia:
I think that I made an impression during the job interview. So I was interviewed by two lovely ladies, one of them Nutan Mishra, one of my biggest mentors, my biggest role models. I still quote her name, and she has given me permission to do so. And I think I came across as somebody who really had the desire for the job. I said, “I may not have the qualification, I may not have the experience, but I will make the effort to learn everything that's needed”. And I think that was just a bit different from what they were used to seeing here in Singapore. I mean, in Singapore, it's not that difficult to find a good position when you graduate from university. And I reckon I was just memorable because I was completely inexperienced, one (who) didn't have any fancy internships from the past. But I said, “I will do whatever it takes”. So I think that was the one that sort of ‘saved me’.
Binod:
So Kaia, after about one and a half years in this Treasury role at Bank of America, you had enough of the slow process driven work, right? That's what you told me. And then one fine day, this junior female employee got her next big break. I know the story, but tell the listeners what you did.
Kaia:
I spent quite a bit of time in operations, and it taught me a lot. But I also realized that the nature of the work, which is very repetitive, very procedural, it's not for me. I didn't enjoy it. So I started networking heavily. I joined every single employee network I could find. I was the active participant, I was always at the forefront. I was volunteering, I was doing charity. And since I got promoted to Assistant Vice President within 18 months, I think the just visibility increased naturally. And also, the same lady who hired me was my direct manager at that point. She tried to help me to find a mentor.
So, I found somebody who was quite senior in operations. A very (I shall call him) rough, straightforward, honest, but very kind hearted Englishman. And he really started boosting my confidence, Binod. He was the one telling me that, “we know that your work quality is great. Now you have to build a network, you have to be at the forefront. Don't be scared, stand your ground and do what any other man would do”. It was a bit weird for me, because I was used to being in the background, maybe being more quiet, trying to fit into the group. So I started being a bit more aggressive.
And one day, I decided to walk into the (office of) the head of Asia Pacific head of technology and operations, a gentleman who would normally sit in Hong Kong, but he was in Singapore for a short business trip. Just went to his office and said, “Mr, I'm looking for a job, I want to do something different. I don't want to work in operations anymore. I would love to have a front office type of role”. So his first question was, “what are your qualifications”? I was like, “I don't really have any except for the fact that I'm doing CFA. I have sat for my first level exam and I'm working towards the second level”. He’s like, “okay, cool. Send me your resume. Let's see what we can do”. And I didn't think I would ever hear back from him, obviously. A couple of weeks later, I got a call from him. And I remember the phone call clearly. It was 7:30 or something, I was still in the office, (And you know, you have those office phones, you see people's names) and I'm like, “Oh, he's calling”. I was like, “Okay, that's a bit weird”. So, I picked up the phone, and he's like, “Kaia, there's an open position. It’s the investment corporate banking as the business manager, but you have to apply now”. So I applied, I did all the interviews, I think it was five of them, and I got the job.
Binod:
It sounds easy when you say it, but what gave you, an obscure Junior, the confidence to simply walk into the office of a feared and respected senior executive, someone so high up in the food chain, someone you didn't know at all, and ask for an opportunity?
Kaia:
Binod, I have never had much sense of authority. So, meaning, I've always been a big believer of flat hierarchies. Maybe this is something that has come to me from my childhood, from my mom. But I think, always, it's the hard work that gives people respect and authority. So for me, I don't have this fear, I shall say. But I think it's also maybe being a bit young and naive, and you know, not having people yell at you that much.
So, I was like, “Okay, what's the worst that can happen’? And I'm pretty confident as well, that being at the forefront, having that (I would say) standing within the organization, by that point, I was quite well known. It gave me the boost that I can do it. And if I reflect back, when I joined that new team in investment banking, people already knew me, despite, you know, front office, back office being completely different buildings, here in Singapore. But three of the bankers knew me already, because I had reached out to them separately, finding their name from the directory, saying, “hey, let's grab a coffee, tell me more about your business”. So, I think that's a bit of proof or sort of a manifestation of my proactiveness in terms of building a network, and not really taking no for an answer. And I will also say, not having the fear of getting a no as an answer.
Binod:
Now, that job that you got, after those five rounds, was an investment banking operations, where you told me frankly, in our initial call, Kaia, that you were cleaning other people's shit up, although the official title was Business Manager, Southeast Asia, corporate investment banking. Quite a mouthful, frankly. And you were also the only woman on the team.
So, I have a few questions on this role.
First is knowing how investment banking works, the new role must have been a shock to you. The initial weeks and months must have been gruelling, and in sharp contrast to your earlier role. Tell me more about how tough it was.
Kaia:
You're spot on, there was a massive cultural shock for me. When I joined operations, it took me a couple of weeks to get used to the culture. When I joined investment banking, I was literally in shock. And it was a very masculine, very aggressive work environment. There was a lot of backstabbing, there was a bit of friction between the team members. There was a very strong hierarchy, meaning that everybody knew their place in the pecking order.
And obviously, the long hours. They were a big shock for me because I think the first weeks I slept four hours every night. I got extensive experience with Excel, Microsoft PowerPoint, these things I had not used to that extent before. Because in operations, everything is very procedural. There is no responsibility, no authority, as a junior employee, everything is always a four-eye check or six-eye check, but it completely changed when I joined investment banking. Basically, the buck stops with me. When I had to do something,deliver something, I had the final authority. And that really changed my mindset about…well, at least ownership I take for the output that I have to do or what's my responsibility.
And if I also think back about investment banking, people see maybe from the movies or from the internet, what investment banking is like. They think it's glamorous: you go for client dinners, and you'll get massive checks and you get the bonus and you buy Ferraris. In my experience, there's very little glamorous life in investment banking. It's actually blood, sweat and tears. It's long-hours. It is making sacrifices around health, sacrifices around family, sacrifices around relationships. It's humbling yourself, because the Managing Directors are always at the top of the pecking order. So you have to make sure whatever they want is always delivered. Because if it's not, they will curse, they will yell at you, they will swear at you, and they will make sure that the next time, you know what has to be done.
Binod:
So with all this culture, shock and Managing Directors yelling and cursing and lack of sleep, and long hours, it must have been quite tempting, Kaia, to give up in that initial phase. So, I'm very curious, especially about the mental toughness of people placed in stressful situations. What did you tell yourself to keep going?
Kaia:
Binod, I kept telling myself, this is the dream. This is what I've been preparing for. This is what I've always wanted. And I shared with you during our initial chat that I remember writing to my journal, asking from the universe, I would like to work in investment banking, on that particular day. And in hindsight, I got the job exactly on that day. I didn't get the investment banking job as a banker, but nevertheless I was part of the sort of ecosystem, and I just kept telling myself, “You have to keep going, you have to keep going, you have to do this because you're not you're not here to give up. You've made all this effort to be here, you're not to give up”.
And I think, I realised, that I actually enjoyed the dynamic, fast paced work. I enjoyed being around driven, intelligent, ambitious people. But I also had to pivot myself completely from the mindset and the skill set that I have. And I think it was one of the toughest things I had done in my life, notwithstanding the fact that I moved to Singapore. But I think those particular, I would say, 2-3-4 months were the toughest period. I didn't eat, I didn't sleep, I was in this weird mindset of pretending to be somebody that maybe I was not. But I also realised at that point in time, that dreams do come true, but sometimes with a bit of a twist and turn, and that's okay. And lastly, I would say, a big realisation for me was that I think I'm a chameleon- meaning that I can adjust to my environment, I can change, I can almost pretend to be somebody I am not. But most importantly, I realised I have the ability to keep going when things are tough, and when times are tough.
Binod:
As I say, when the going gets tough, the tough get going. Now, I'm sure that working as the only woman in a male dominated, testosterone fueled environment that is investment banking, must have had an impact on you as a person and as a professional. So what are the challenges that you faced?
Kaia:
I realised quite early that it's better not to stick out, I found it more comfortable for myself to almost be in the background and blend into the group. So I started wearing white shirts, cufflinks, and dark suits. I just didn't want to stand out, because Binod I’m in Asia, I'm a blonde female, I stand out anyway. I'm the tallest person in the room most of the time. So I try to sort of be as neutral as possible, thinking that that would help me and that would be in my favour. And that didn't help me, to be honest, because there were still a couple of instances, even with sexual harassment, that I was pre ‘hashtag me too’ era. And I realised, it doesn't really matter if I try to stand out. If people want to be malicious and do harm, ‘they will do it anyway’.
An interesting thing, and I'm sure you have observed the same in your finance life: senior women are sometimes much more aggressive than senior men, because I think women may have endured more. I can only guess, maybe they've endured more. So, they think that the junior females should endure the same. So I recall seeing a senior, actually, Managing Director, calling a junior employee the ‘C’ word. And I was in shock. Why? Why would you do that? Why would you put that poor girl (she was a Korean girl) into tears? And HR did nothing at that point, because that was sort of, “accept that; that's the investment banking life, and that's what we should tolerate”.
Binod:
So, those were the key challenges. And how exactly did that tough role change you? And strategically, and probably, equally importantly, do you regret the way that it changed you?
Kaia:
I think it's toughened me up, not necessarily in a positive way, in a good way. But I think I definitely grew a very thick skin. In an investment banking environment, there's not much room to build relationships, there's not much space and not much room. So everybody just wants to progress. They want to get on with their work. And even in hindsight, many of my ex colleagues have admitted that when they worked for the bank, they were professional actors. They came on everyday with a face, a persona that you have to portray. So, I think I did the same.
And to be honest, I don't have any regrets. Meaning that, I think it just helped me to change into the person I am today. Not to say that the super aggressive me was the best version of me, but I think I've mitigated and come back from that version of me. But at the same time, I saw what intense banking life means. I saw what hard work looks like. And I had it easier because I was not really a banker as such, but it was a...I would say…front row view, realising that it’s not glamorous. That's not something I want to do in the long run. I don't want to sacrifice my health, my relationships and my family.
Binod:
Right Kaia, then you got laid off, as you do when working in investment banking, even if it's investment banking operations. But at the same meeting human resources offered you another role at Bank of America in Singapore, which must have been a big relief as you can't live in Singapore without a work permit. Now, I understand that it was a role change and not a headcount change. But still, that offer was probably unusual. Why did they do that? I mean, what did they see in you?
Kaia:
Yeah, it was an eventful day, indeed. So big banks generally have twice a year, the so-called cutting days. Everybody knows when they are. So, everybody sort of prepares, I guess, in a way. And that particular morning, I remember seeing the HR names again, on the same phone. I called back and she's like, “Yep, we're gonna have a meeting in one hour. Can you please come to the meeting room”? And I realised, this is it! So, I started packing my things naturally. First thing I did, I pulled in a box, the printing paper box, started putting all my things inside and thinking, “Okay, what am I going to do now, because I need a work visa to stay in Singapore”?
So, I go to the meeting room, I sit down, they dial in my boss, because he was sitting in Hong Kong, everybody's on a big screen, sort of. And they are like, “Yep, sorry to say, but your job has been cut. But on the flip side, there's another job for you sort of within the same line of business, but doing more business controls for banking and markets in Southeast Asia, not just business management”. So I decided to, of course, go on with the interview process. I did my five rounds of interviews, and I got the job.
I think, what saved me Binod, on that day, was the fact again, I was an active employee, I was part of the employee networks, I was part of the committees. I was the chair for some of the committees. I was a female. And I think from an optical perspective, it just wouldn’t look very good if they had fired me. Somebody who was active, was a female and just sort of known within the organisations. And that's how big organisations work. I mean, optics is a very important part of everything that they do.
Binod:
Interesting. You mentioned the answer to the previous question that you were quite an avid networker while at the Bank, and hence it stood out. So I have several questions here.
First one, many youngsters, from what I've seen, don't realise the importance of networking and think it's a waste of time. They falsely assume that they can succeed purely through a combination of qualifications, like CA or CFA, and performance at work. What made you realise at a relatively young age, that that's not enough?
Kaia
I realised quite early, that there are so many intelligent people out there, intelligent, right? Born into the right families, ‘educated in top universities’. From my perspective, I was just a girl from Eastern Europe. I had nothing to show other than (let's call it) my past experience (and I wasn't impressed by my own past experience) and my attitude. So, I had to find other ways to stand out. And I found that meeting people with a big smile, and a firm handshake, just did all the favours I needed. People remembered me, people remembered the warmth, they remembered.
I guess, they say, that people don't remember words that much, (they) rather (remember) the emotion other people trigger in them. And I think just my friendly and warm approach helped me. And in hindsight, I don't think I actually appreciated the power of the network at that point in time. Now, I realise that it really doesn't matter what you know, but it matters who you know. And I'm fully cognizant of the fact that during a global pandemic, it's very hard to network. It's very hard to go to events physically. And having this interaction through the screen- it's great, but it's not really the same. But even more, I'm thankful for social media platforms, let's say LinkedIn, where we met, that they exist, and they give the opportunity to meet two people and you can reach out to anyone, and the worst case they're going to do, they're going to say no, or they ignore you. And you know, I'm okay with that.
Binod:
My second question on networking is what networks were you a member of, and why did you choose this?
Kaia:
So, in Bank of America, there were actually many employee networks. The main one where I was a member of the board, I should say the chair, was Leads for Women, which was basically a female talent network within Bank of America. It was the largest in Asia and it had a lot of very senior sponsors. So, what that gave us was access to people, access to resources. We got to have a lot of amazing events throughout the year. We got to invite the Head of departments, head of the Bank divisions and ask really hard and compelling questions such as, “why is there still a big gap between men and women?”, “Why are there no females as part of the executive committee”? And if you can ask that question to the bank, not to, say global CEO, but Singapore CEO, I absolutely loved it because men actually had to reflect, they had to think, “why is that”? And I had to be honest, because everybody could call their excuse in my language, ‘their BS’, if they gave some sort of vague answer. So it was just a brilliant opportunity to speak with very, very senior people, very intelligent people, and really think about why are there so few women in senior positions.
And outside of the bank, I was also a member of ‘100 women in hedge funds’. These days, it's called ‘100 Women in finance’. It’s an amazing network because the participants are members, from all across the financial services industry. You go to their event, and you can meet again, the CEO, CFO of biggest asset management companies, hedge funds, brokerage houses. So, it’s just an amazing network.
And lastly, I was of course, a member of CFA Institute, because that's, that's one of the networks whereby it's not just, I shall call it fluff and talk about something. It's also an educational aspect. It really builds up the financial services industry, from ethics perspective, from knowledge perspective, and I really appreciate that. And I appreciate the fact that CFA Institute or CFA society in Singapore has now given me the opportunity to be a mentor, not just the mentee, so I get to be part of the other side of this relationship.
Binod:
Now, Kaia, the role that HR found for you, after they fired you the same day, was ‘Head of Southeast Asia, banking and markets business controls’. It was a vice president grade. So, you are moving up in life and career. Sounds impressive. But as usual, you must have had the good bits and the ugly bits. I have a few things to ask you here.
Number one, what were the good and bad aspects of that role?
Kaia:
I mean, firstly, I had to pivot completely again. I had to take on a completely new hat and change my mindset. So basically, I became a professional document reader and synthesiser, if that's the right pronunciation. So, my job was to read through hundreds and hundreds of pages, regulatory changes, governance, central bank legislations, and make sure that the bank adheres to the regulation. So, it was very detail oriented. And there was no room to take any shortcuts because the bank would have been subject to some sort of fine or regulatory breach, or, it could have jeopardised my own job. So, I realised that there's no way to cut any corners in that particular role.
The benefit of that role was that I got access to very senior people within the bank. And I also got an opportunity to speak with a lot of the central banks, not just here in Asia, but I was also part of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, coming to Singapore, and auditing Bank of America. And I remember sitting in the meeting room with these guys. And there was a question and we had all the questions. We had rehearsed them so many times. And they asked this one question, and I put up my hand, I would like to take this question. And I completely messed up. I started answering a completely different question. And I remember my boss's face. And I remember the other guy's face. And I was like, “Oh, I apologise. I think I'm mixing something up here”. But everybody was forgiving, because they realised I was probably a junior and I was quite nervous. So it was a good lesson for me as well, in a way to stay calm in that environment
.
The downside of that role, Binod, was that my job was policing the bankers and the traders, predominantly from the perspective of disciplinary breaches. So, I did not make friends on the trading floor. In fact, when I got to, let's say, when I went to the pantry or meeting rooms, people sometimes left or they got completely silent.
Binod:
So, this was another culture shock, for lack of a better word, which also probably meant you learnt a lot. So, what exactly did you pick up on this job?
Kaia:
For me, the main takeaway was that tedious and boring jobs are often very well rewarded, because most people don't want to do those jobs. Moreover, most people are not good at those jobs because they don't have that focus and that detail-orientation that you need to have. And I would say, focus and intensity was required every single day, because any mistake could cost the bank money, reputation or even losing a licence or your own job. And I also saw how sloppy professionals can really be even in the financial services industry, where people are quite well paid, you have a pretty good qualification, and sometimes you are regulated or licensed. Even then, people sometimes just don't care what they do, how they do. And that comes at the cost of, again, like I mentioned, reputation or job.
Binod:
So, it was in this job, Kaia, that you stumbled upon yet another career truth. I love what you said in the previous question, about doing boring jobs and working on opportunities like that. I find that particularly insightful, because like you said earlier in an answer to a question, 99% of young finance graduates want to begin investment banking, private equity, or consulting because these are socially esteemed, and hence are sexier and increase your market value, plus they are better paying etc. Can you delve deeper into the unexpected and unknown benefits of a boring job?
Kaia:
Well, I think that nobody wants to, for instance, see a TV show about a compliance officer reading documents. It's not interesting, it's not sexy, as you pointed out. Everybody wants to see bankers advising mergers, taking companies public, corporate lawyers doing hostile takeovers, that's what's interesting. And it's the media that has built this bias towards certain jobs as they are more desirable. And I observed the same about myself. If I think back, what did I want to do when I was young? (Sigh) “I want to be in banking, that's what I want to do”.
And of course, remuneration is very high in certain types of roles. But they come with a very, very big cost and sacrifice Binod. And I think a lot of young people don't realise that (we're not even going to call it senior in a bank, but let's put it this way) in order to get a job within the banking hierarchy, especially investment banking, where you don't do the dirty work, when you actually get to add value, you have to give away at least six years of your life, your health, your relationships, your family, all the social aspects, because you're going to spend at least 18 hours in the office, working like a dog, accepting insults. And it's a lot of stress and sacrifices that I think young people just don't realise.
And for that matter, I'm actually mentoring a gentleman, a young man, myself, who is a second year university bachelor's degree; extremely brilliant young man, intellectually miles ahead of me, and I say this, hand on my heart, he is a very, very intelligent young man. He wants to work in investment banking. In fact, he wants to work in private equity. But he thinks that he also wants to go everyday at six or 7pm, and doesn't realise that those two things, they just don't marry.
Binod:
Then you switched careers, didn't you? It was a major switch, because not only did you move from the sell side, i.e. investment banking, to the buy side, that's hedge funds, which itself is a major leap in perspective and performance requirements, but you took a cut in grade and in pay and went from VP to mere analyst. I want to know quite a few things.
Number one, how did you get that opportunity? I want you to cover not just how experience and aptitude helped, but also how the network helped.
Kaia:
So that change came about in 2018. I think it's 2018. Maybe it's 2019, or it's 2018. And it was through my network. So I had an ex-colleague from Bank of America Merrill Lynch, who had quit, had joined a private credit hedge fund. We kept in contact, he had become a friend, he had become a mentor. And I think he could just see my frustration. He could see the fact that I was trying hard to get to a front office role, or I shouldn't say front office role, I should say, a business role within the bank, and he could see the frustration in me whereby I was told constantly, “No, you don't have the experience you haven't done this before”. And later, he told me that he saw me as an intelligent, hardworking young woman, (I put it this way but it has nothing to do with my sex) or young professional, who just was rejected constantly.
So, he gave me an opportunity to join as an analyst in a hedge fund. And the fact that I had just sat CFA Level two exam, gave me also the academic experience or academic background, let's put it this way. Because CFA is practically designed for asset management type of roles. And of course, I was super excited because I could finally do what I love, meaning I love markets, I love macroeconomics, analysing and reading about companies, synthesising that information and getting paid for that.
For me, that was a dream come true. So taking the cut in pay, although it wasn't a big cut, and taking a cut in terms of my title, made absolutely no difference for me. And again, as I've mentioned before, I don't have much respect towards hierarchy. I jokingly call myself chief coffee drinker. So it doesn't matter what's the title as long as I do what I like, with the people I like.
Binod:
These days, Kaia, you appear frequently on CNBC Arabia and Asharq Bloomberg. For someone unfamiliar with public presentations, such as yourself, especially talking live on air, on complex technical topics, it must have been terrifying initially. Yet you did it. And now you appear frequently on these channels. Obviously, because you became quite good at it.
Now, public speaking terrifies most people. Recent research indicates that up to 75% of people are scared of public speaking. And it features some of the top three things they're scared of in life. So, women are particularly susceptible to this fear for various reasons. So, a few questions.
Number one, what made you want to speak, and to be heard and seen, despite the lack of experience?
Kaia:
Binod, I didn't want to speak publicly at all. In fact, when I first moved to Singapore, I was very mindful about my English, because English is actually my third language. And I realised I had an accent problem, I made grammatical mistakes, I didn't have the vocabulary. So, I didn't even want to have any public speaking experience. But it was again my mentor, and my manager at the time, who said, “Why don't you join the ‘Toastmasters' program here in the bank”? And the Bank of America had their own chapter. So, I was like, “you know, I'm going to do it”.
And I remember, it was the first speech where you had to do something like an introduction about yourself. Where you're from…blah, blah, blah. And I was like, “not only am I going to do a speech, I'm going to sing in front of people”. And I hate singing. I'm horrible at singing. So I remember I sang the first first few lines of the Estonian anthem. And I guess it worked, because I started getting better and better, and increasingly started enjoying it. So, now, doing TV interviews is part of my job. And I think I do quite alright, because they keep inviting me back.
Binod:
So how did you manage to do a good job despite the initial, almost paralysing fear?
Kaia:
It's been a long journey. But I've had a few realisations.
So, I found that practice makes perfect. And this means that generally I practice what I'm going to say. Sometimes I write the sentences out, I think them through, I synthesise them.
Knowing your material is really important.
I also realised, and it sounds a bit superficial, that sometimes good presentation and visuals is even as important, or more important than the content. Meaning, if you have good audio, if you have good video quality, if you look good on camera, that is as important as what you're saying.
And my last realisation or final realisation also ties back to let's say the Federal Reserve Bank meeting is that the audience is actually, really, forgiving.
Binod:
Now, you're a CFA charter holder, Kaia, but you were hired as a buy-side analyst, even before you completed level two of the CFA Program, that too in a sophisticated market like Singapore. Now, I find that most younger youngsters in Asia and the Middle East, who I have interacted with, overrate the importance of programs like CFA, deluded into thinking that doors will automatically open once you get the Charter, which is not the case, of course.
What does your journey say about the importance of qualifications like the CFA in the eyes of employers, versus important elements like experience, attitude and network in your career? I know this is a counterfactual question because that's a different life, parallel life. But would you have been a Chief Investment Officer without a charter?
Kaia:
Quite a few things to unpack.
So firstly, I think, the importance of academic education is a bit cultural. So definitely it is more important in Asia and the Middle East than for instance, than what it would have in Europe or maybe in the US, let's say North America. But the trends in the industry are such that a lot of the routine and more laborious skills will be automated or already have been automated. So, I think the attitude, the soft skills and networking is becoming increasingly important. And especially when you can complement that with some sort of technical or harder skill.
I think that you can't underestimate Charters such as CFA or CA or MBA, but they only can work if you have the soft skill to support that. So I think network and attitude are critical to stand out. But you also need the technical skills and mastery because these things will always be rewarded. And I think it's also important to understand for youngsters these days, that it's good to have a broad and lateral skill set, not to specialise too early in your career, because you don't know the way the industry is going to go. You don't know what skills will be rewarded in the future. In order to be a good leader, you have to have knowledge about many things. Of course, you can specialise in something but I think for the first five to six years, do as many things as possible, learn as many things as possible.
Your question about me being a CIO without my CFA charter? The answer is no, definitely not. Because my push for CFA was always found quite impressive by people I was interviewing with, my mentors, my sponsors, because everybody knows about the intensity of the program. And the fact that I was doing this whilst working for operations, be it back office work, or the business side, everybody found that quite impressive. Again, because they saw this as a validation for my ambition.
And I will say that CFA is very important for finance types of jobs, especially in Asia, especially for buy sides. And I would also highlight the importance of CFA because it really focuses on the integrity, the ethics of the industry. And if you think about the intensity of the program, which you know really well too, you prepare 300 plus hours for every exam. If you add all these pieces together, I think it's a charter that's definitely worth pursuing, assuming that the opportunity cost of time isn't too great.
Binod:
I'm gonna take a break from talking about your career progression here, which is all what we have talked about, and very interesting and important stuff, and want to go back in time and dig a little bit with the personal details, because I can see an underlying theme here.
The theme I see is of someone who is obviously quite bright and ambitious, but also excellent at the soft skills of networking and building relationships, and trying out new things and being incredibly resilient, which I think is very important, and also that's a very rare combination. Of course, this is a mix of nature, genetics, of course and nurture- the environment, including upbringing. So this is what I want to know, what roles did environments such as parenting play in shaping who you became as an adult about to enter the workplace?
Kaia:
I'm a big proponent of nurture. And in my opinion, in my view, and as much as I've read, talent doesn't get you too far in life without constant focus and intensity. Hard work will take a mediocre talent further than talent with no effort. And I’m sure you know the football player, soccer player (it depends where you're from) Messi, who has said that it took him 17 years to become an overnight success. So, just showing how much hard work goes into achieving greatness.
And about the nurture side. I mean, my mom is extremely driven, hardworking. And she has always taught me the importance of hard work and self reliance. She has always pushed me to be independent. And she has always told me don't have the illusion that life owes you something or somebody must give you something. If you want something, you have to work towards it yourself. Now, I think I've taken some of these lessons a bit too seriously myself, to my own detriment to some point, because I do struggle to ask for help sometimes. And I do find that, occasionally, I find it easier to do things myself than to delegate. Meaning that if you have become a senior manager or leader in an organisation, there's more value in bringing up talent around you than doing everything yourself, because you only have x number of hours in every day. And this is something I'm still learning to do effectively- how to delegate to my team.
Binod:
And my second question on the personal theme is how, if at all, do you use role models to overcome adversity and drive yourself forward these days?
Kaia:
I've been very lucky, Binod, because I've had a lot of great mentors and sponsors in my life. I've tried to surround myself with talented, hardworking, intelligent people. I've been very lucky because my work environment has offered me that. And I really like the quote by Jim Rohn, that “you are the average of the five people that you interact with the most”. So I tried to expose myself to people whose characteristics I would like to adopt. It doesn't need to be in person. It can be through YouTube, it can be through podcasts, it can be through reading books. And I'm also a big fan of stoicism and Marcus Aurelius or modern day, it's Ryan Holiday, who has carried forward his teachings. It's when things are bad, focus on the task at hand. So, there's a mantra by Ryan Holiday…I don't know, maybe it's by Marcus Aurelius; it is, “chop wood, carry water, chop wood, carry water”; one step, next step, the third step…
Binod:
Now, as a woman leader in investing, and finance, Kaia, you have obviously worked with both men and women on various occasions. You also told me that you’re a strong advocate of diversity and inclusion in the workplace. Now, the reality is that, of course, women are significantly underrepresented at all levels in finance in general, and investing in particular. That's a global phenomenon, irrespective of which country or city you pick.
I think this happens for various internal and external reasons. But I want to focus on the internal reasons, as that's more controllable. Plus, otherwise, the discussion gets too broad and lengthy.
So I have two questions here.
Number one, what have you seen are the various ways in which women with potential self sabotage, their route to success?
Kaia:
I think women tend to sell themselves short, because generally, women are brought up to be cautious, balanced, gentle, and lady-like. So, I think that women sometimes reject some opportunities, or don't even apply for roles that they would actually qualify for, just because we feel we are under qualified. You know, if you have those job descriptions, if you don't take every single one of them 10 requirements, no point of even applying, whereas a man would be- “okay, fine, I can do three, and maybe I'll just give it a go”.
And also, I think that sometimes women adapt to the environment to a point that they abandon themselves, and I'm definitely guilty of that. So that means that once you abandon or give up your core values, you end up being unhappy, you end up being unfulfilled, which means you're not going to last long in that particular position or job.
And I think it's something which not just a characteristic of women, but also men, is that people are afraid to ask what they want, be it maybe catching up for a coffee, a job opportunity, mentorship, people are afraid of getting no for an answer. But really, the worst thing that's going to happen is getting a no.
And you know, most people want to help, they will try to offer something even if they can't help you, maybe they will refer you to a next person or they refer you to their friends. So, I would say just go out there and ask the question.
Binod:
Now, you've gotten a career, all the way from junior to Chief Investment Officer- pretty much in top management. So, you've been there and done that. What are the practical steps for a woman, who is already a manager, to improve your chances of entering top management or the C suite.
Kaia:
Being excellent at your job is obvious.
So, I would say that focusing on the network is critical, especially in a large organisation where you have to proactively network in order to be seen and heard.
I think finding a mentor or sponsor is always helpful. And understanding the difference between a mentor and a sponsor is really important.
But there’s little traffic on that extra mile. So if you’re willing to take that extra step, generally that is rewarded.
And if there is a glass ceiling in an organisation, then I would say just go and work for somebody else. Why would you want to waste your years on a company that doesn't even offer the opportunity to succeed or to excel?
But after 30 something years, I will say that there's no promotion, no position that's worth that same self betrayal or sabotaging. Staying true to oneself and one's values is absolutely critical.
Binod:
You must be having a stressful and hectic schedule, right? Especially these days with what you see around the soaring inflation or overvalued assets, volatile markets, scary geopolitics around the Baltic side of the worldespecially, and overall the terrible, frustrating uncertainty.
As a health and fitness addict myself, I'm delighted to see that you look quite in shape and haven't acquired extra pounds, like many senior executives, whether male or female, who neglect their health. So I'm curious, what do you do outside of work to stay calm and keep both mentally and physically fit?
Kaia:
So I'm guilty of neglecting my workout regime as well during COVID. So pre COVID, I was I was a bit of a health nut. I was exercising every day. I was in the gym by 6am, doing my 90 minutes of exercise, going to work, coming home, reading books, doing all these type of things. During COVID, and post COVID, I found it hard to get back to that routine. So the biggest lesson or something I'm practicing right now is being kind to myself.
If I'm really tired, if I need to be lazy, just rest and don't have any guilt over that because that was something I was struggling in the past feeling guilty when I was taking the day off from gym or you know, not being super efficient.
So sometimes I just have movie marathons on the couch or just watch TV all day, if that feels good. So right now I'm actually watching Game of Thrones for the second time in my life, which is a long term commitment if you know what I mean. It's six, six seasons and 10 episodes per season.
But I do enjoy working out I like going for a bike ride. I like yoga, I like lifting weights, and I like to keep myself mentally balanced that fit so I listen to podcasts such as yours. I read books, I watch YouTube channel. I like to expose myself to anything new and interesting.
Binod:
Right! You know, Kaia, some of the biggest struggles I see, as an executive coach, are of people who are excellent individual contributors, but are average or mediocre people managers. And I'm sure you've seen that a lot. As a result, their upward moves are limited or curtailed. You have gone from analyst to chief investment officer. You must have introspected honestly and learned a few hard lessons from your screw-ups along the way. What are the top three lessons that you picked up that have made you a better manager?
Kaia:
I would need to start saying I don't think I'm actually a great manager. And this is a skill I find that I'm still learning. But I've been blessed by having amazing managers throughout my career. So I'm just trying hard to replicate their kindness, their patience and the wealth of their knowledge. But I have realised that everybody has blind spots, and everybody's a work in progress. And that's okay. And I tried to apply the same kindness to myself, knowing that I'm still work in progress, there's still room to grow. And we're all on this sort of journey of becoming a better version or better professional.
In terms of lessons, my most recent lesson is that we all have different styles of working. Being a good manager, being a good leader is being cognizant and mindful of those differences. Now, as human beings, we're biassed, sort of, to like the people who look, who talk, who dress just like us. But if we want to succeed, and if we want our organisations to succeed, we need to surpass those biases, and allow everyone to be who they are in the workplace, because that's the only way we can incorporate different opinions into the decision making process. And that's the only way we can address the audience or the clients we have, who are equally diverse as we are.
And I would say the last lesson I've had is that one bad apple can spoil the bunch. As a manager and as a leader, it's sometimes better to let go of that one apple or that one individual, before a group or an organisation becomes dysfunctional.
Binod:
Interesting, and I couldn't have said it better myself. Unfortunately, all good things come to an end Kaia, and this is the end, the conclusion of this fascinating discussion. Thank you so much for taking time for the recording, and also all the preliminary work leading up to it, including discussing the questions and the answers, despite a very hectic work and travel schedule. I really appreciate that.
And this has been a quite insightful and interesting interview, apart from being quite impressive (seeing someone from Eastern Europe, with your background making it big in a financial hub, such as Singapore). I hope it encourages many youngsters out there, both men and women to think hard about their career choices and the skills and attitudes they need to have to rise up in their career, and balance work and life and include mental and physical wellness as well. Thank you so much.
Kaia:
It's been a pleasure, honour and a joy to join you. Thank you so much for having me and looking forward to keeping in touch with you
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