Episode 41: Recruit for values. Train for the future.
Ian is one of an extremely rare breed. He’s a brilliant academic with tons of real life experience applying what he learnt and taught. He also has a great sense of humor and I’ve been wanting to talk to him for years.
We chat about leadership in the military, what corporates can learn from the armed forces, a leader’s most important trait, his simple hack to find your values, the importance of decision structures, how to change your identity, how not to end up as a jerk leader etc. I also get over an unreasonable fear of the Scottish accent.
You can check the entire video episode on youtube or enjoy reading the transcript below.
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(Music plays)
Binod Shankar
Hi everyone! This is Binod Shankar here with the real finance mentor Podcast, the podcast that brings you insight and inspiration for your careers. Today I have another guest who will throw light on many of the questions that most people have, regarding careers and leadership.
Binod Shankar:
Hi everyone, this is Binod Shankar here with The Real Finance mentor Podcast, the podcast that brings insight and inspiration for your careers. We have a special guest as always, but this special guest doesn't come from a finance or an accounting background. He comes from a very special background. I'm going to introduce you to Dr. Ian Stewart, who has had an enviously interesting and impactful career. Recently he was the head of the Academy at the Public Investment fund, one of the world's largest sovereign wealth funds with assets under management of approximately $620 billion. At PIF Ian set up a physical learning environment, as well as put in place a professional learning curriculum of programs and courses.
Before PIF, Ian was Executive Director Learning and Design at Kaplan Performance Academy, the first digital platform to host assessment, learning, and coaching in one place. Ian was responsible for the design and development of unique situational judgment assessments that measure both competence and confidence of respondents, providing a predictive measure of their potential. Ssounds fascinating.
Since 2012, he has designed and delivered senior leadership and executive programs for a range of clients. Clients have been mostly but not exclusively from the financial services including Legal and General, AON, Barclays, Royal Bank of Scotland, British Sugar, and the Financial Conduct Authority. He has worked with a range of populations from graduate inductions toboard level interventions. His academic background means he has a robust understanding of the practice and can identify and apply the simplest, most effective, best-value solutions.
Now, this is why his background is interesting as well.
Before moving to the private sector, Dr. Stewart spent a large chunk of his career learning his trade; from the academic departments for the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst, designing assessments and programs and teaching, studying, and, developing a practical understanding of leadership and talent development. At Sandhurst he also established the Applied Behavioral Science Department, helping to accelerate the development of the Army leadership talent pool, and giving them practical means and methods relevant to the new set of challenges they were facing, on and off operations. In addition to his work at Academy, he trained military officers and senior officials of more than 20 countries, including Sierra Leone, the Republic of Congo, Ethiopia, Columbia, South Africa, and Indonesia, as well as taught Psychology for the Open University and acted as a visiting lecturer at Cass Business School.
Ian's specializations of interest include leadership development, organizational diagnostics, problem-solvingand decision-making, psychology of influence, and change and behavioral economics.
Ian has a BA (first class Honors), a Master's in Linguistics, and a Ph.D. in communication and influence. Welcome to the show, Ian and that is quite a mouthful!
Ian Stewart:
I only wish my mother could have been here, she would have been so proud. She may not have recognized me, but she would have been very proud. Thank you so much for asking me on your podcast today. I know how well it's received. I know how popular it is. So, I'm really glad to be with you again.
Binod Shankar:
Of course, the biggest challenge that I'm going to be facing is probably going to be your accent. But, let's see how the listeners navigate through the complexities of psychology and your accent in one go.
Ian Stewart:
Catch that, it must have been your perfect English accent. I will try my best and be on my best behavior, I promise. It'll be a very good little exercise for your listeners.
Binod Shankar:
So let's dive into the questions, shall we? The first one is, I have to ask this question because it's not very often that I interview someone who's not just taught at probably the world's premium Military Training Institute and interacted with senior leaders from the military but also trained and coached senior leaders from top companies.
So, I have three questions. Number one, what does it take to reach the highest echelons of the military?
Ian Stewart:
I think it's similar to what it takes to reach the higher echelons in most organizations.
One is, you have that deep commitment to developing yourself by having those professional skills, which are absolutely required. Those professional skills may fall into two categories, you have those skills, which are technical, which are relevant to the profession that you're pursuing, but also that set of behavioral and human skills that are going to be required as you move through the organization, being able to get on with others to collaborate, to influence without authority, and so on and so far. But also, there are a couple of other things.
One is, how well you develop your personal reputation. I often hear and read on LinkedIn, people talking about a personal brand. I'm not entirely comfortable with that as a term. I think the sense of personal reputation or what other people say about you when you're not around, and that kind of shadow that you cast is incredibly important.
Then the third piece is, being in the right place at the right time. At Sandhurt, one of the pieces of advice we would always give to a young cadet is march to the sound of guns. What's meant by that is not necessarily physical, go forwards whether there was gunfire. But, go to where interesting, exciting, relevant thing things are happening, go towards these, because these won't come to you. And if you go forwards, interesting things will happen. I think it was Woody Allen who said that “90% of success in life was showing up”. But, you've got to be in the right place at the right time with the right skill set.
Binod Shankar:
So which brings me to my second question, and that is, how does the system in the Armed Forces identify and develop this top talent?
Ian Stewart:
It's an interesting system.
If you think about the military, you recruit all your top talent when they're 19,20,21,22 years old. You grow the talent, you don't hire them. Generals or colonels later in their careers. What you are at the beginning, is the talent pool that you have to grow and develop. So, the army does a few things, the military more generally.
What is a great emphasis on training and development? Training, we get that. Training programs, learning new skills, and develop new knowledge, and so on, but, so is this concept of development. By development, I don't just mean getting better at something, though, it should imply; putting yourself in unfamiliar and challenging situations. The military accelerates that by moving people to different posts. You may do an infantry role, you may have your procurement role, and you might do a policy role. You're being put in different environments, where it was going to challenge you, and that's going to help you develop. You're never going to see yourself the same way again, and you won't see your organization in the same way again.
If you want to develop, there are only two things that you can do- Either do different things or do things differently. The way that career progression works within the military is to encourage both of those- do things differently, do different things.
Binod Shankar:
So with this, of course, neatly segues into my last piece of this question, here it is- What are the three different things or things done differently that companies, commercial organizations can learn from the military in terms of recruitment, development, and reward?
Ian Stewart:
Think in terms of recruitment, it's very much about recruiting. Recruit with values in mind. Are the individuals that you're bringing into your organization is it a good fit? . Between their values, the kind of professional lives they want to lead, , the kind of personal lives they want to lead, and the purpose of your organization. When you get that fit between people in an organization, I think that benefits both the organizations and the individuals.
Military spend a lot of time trying to make sure that fits right. They don't always get it right. But trying to make sure that it fits right. I think that's one thing.
I think again, training and development- using training, and learning has got many, many advantages. But perhaps the main advantage for me is to connect with people. It connects your organization and puts people together. When you put people together, great things and interesting things happen. So, using learning as a way of enacting cultural change, bringing people together, and binding your organization. We always used to say that the teams that train together, fight together, are learning to work with each other. So using learning, in that regard, perhaps is something that we could learn a bit more from the military.
The third piece is, we can reward people with more things than just money. There's a lot of research on the effects of money. We can get people to act differently if we give them money. Salespeople will sell more if you make the commissions bigger. Bankers will generally find a way of finding better investments if you make the bonuses more lucrative. The question is, are these the right sales? Are they the right investments? Do the means always match the ends that were set out for them?
Well, monetary rewards are essential. What other ways can we reward people? Can we give them more autonomy? Can we give them more time? Can we give them more opportunities to develop and grow as individuals? It's not easy in a commercial organization, there's work to be done. But I think if you can, you can leverage some of that, as you've seen lots of tech companies like Google. For instance, the classic Google example- where they would give people a portion of their time to themselves. And of course, what they found was that they spent that time doing things which then folded back into their working lives. Google tried to make sure they've got people whose values and personal ambitions also fit with the organization.
Binod Shankar:
The fascinating part I found about your answer was the reference to how learning is not just a tool for training someone but also how it connects people and binds the organization. I never thought of it that way. That's an interesting way. And, you ended the answer, by talking about values in an extremely important point, which we will touch upon very soon. But before going to values, I want to talk about self-awareness. Despite its criticality in every aspect of life, why do so many people lack the amount of self-awareness required to ensure success, fulfillment, etc.? Why does that happen?
Ian Stewart:
The national poet of Scotland, Robert Burns, or as we pronounce them, Rabbie Burns, once wrote
“O, wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!”
In other words, if only we could see ourselves as other people see us? Why do we recoil from that sometimes? Why do we avoid some of those kinds of home truths? I'm not sure. I think part of it might be ego defense, that that we become very sensitive to criticism. Particularly as we get older; perhaps we're ambitious, and we're competitive. For anything that feels like a criticism, we send it off, and we find other ways of interpreting it.
My background is in social psychology. I think there are all sorts of situational factors here. And one of the factors for me, and the speculation is that professional life has a lot of anxiety. People feel anxious about whether will they keep their job or, will be promoted, are they highly thought of, will they get the bonus they expect. There's lots of anxiety. I think when people are feeling anxious, that's not a great place to ask them to be very open and very self-aware. I think the ego then comes to play and defends you.
It's different for different people. But as I say, it's my speculation. So I think we have to do something about getting people to feel more comfortable before we can move them on to self-awareness
Binod Shankar:
It is interesting. When I asked the same question to someonesenior I know well, his reply was not very dissimilar to you, which is that most people in corporate and elsewhere are so obsessed with the outside world in terms of issues, in terms of anxieties, regarding promotions, pay, and competition, that they just don't have enough time to look inside. So, that sort of gels with your answer in a way as well.
Ian Stewart:
It's also the fear of criticism.
I look over LinkedIn occasionally and I read some of the posts, and they kind of veer between people, humble bragging, making these little comments, to these rather hysterical sorts of outbursts of how fantastic everything is, and frankly, most of them read like they are cries for help. I think there's something in corporate life that we need to address there, there are lots of anxieties and people who aren't comfortable in their skin. People who aren't comfortable in their skin, don't feel secure, it is very difficult to ask them
to be very open about their weaknesses or areas of development and so on. I just get that expression. I've worked with some very successful people who are so sensitive to criticism, it's quite extraordinary.
Binod Shankar:
As I promised, we're going to loop back to values Ian something that you touched upon when you talked about recruitment in the army. Values are essential to navigate your way around life. If you’re a senior-level manager feeling stuck in your career, how do you find out what your values are? That's one thing. Does it come from experience, but that could mean a painful weight lasting decades? So what's the most efficient, effective way of finding out your values?
Ian Stewart:
Look In another place, you and I could have a very long philosophical conversation about this, I'm sure we will.
But for me, it was a very simple little exercise I used to do with my cadets when I was at Sandhurst. I've subsequently done it with all sorts of people. It's a very simple exercise, you take a group of people, and you give them a dozen little pieces of paper and ask them to put on each piece of paper, something that's really important to them, or they would like to achieve, or they'd like to have. So, people put things like a big car, a holiday in the Caribbean, or whatever it is. They can have about a dozen of these. Then you say to put it in front of you and take four of those away, and they take away four of these.
Then, of course, you ask them to take another four and so on, and you gradually whittle it down. I can tell you, that when you get to the Final Four, it's normally things like family, its health, its friendship, and its purpose.
It's those sorts of things that are really at the core of what's important to us. I used to always say to the cadets to take those four pieces of paper and put them inside their wallets, and don't forget them. When you feel a little down and a little detached, and a little directionless, take out those four pieces of paper and just remind yourself what your True North is, and if your True North is a big house and a big car and lots of money, a holiday in the Caribbean, that's fine. But, you may find that your True North isn't those things your True North is something rather more spiritual and more human and less tangible.
I think that's good, nice little exercise. I'm not a philosopher, so I kind of leave it there. But, I think it's a nice little exercise and I would encourage all your listeners to do it. It's quite surprising and you have to kind of dispense with a big fancy car and choose clean living instead.
Binod Shankar:
Now, this, of course, is a very, very important topic. It's a hotly debated topic, Ian, and I hope you can give us your informed views. What are the three most important traits about a leader (If possible, can you give that in an order of importance) and why?
Ian:
Yeah, it's a big topic, really, isn't that? And you can use reams and reams of personality traits and behaviours and all the rest of it. I'm going to make it a bit simpler.
I used to teach at a military academy, we kept things w’'ve tried to keep things relatively simple.
I think the first thing is, are they good team players? Without teams, there’s no leaders. You have to be a team player, you have to know what it's like to be part of a team, to know how to operate and, and to be able to stand up for the team as well, because that's what leaders do. Leaders represent teams. So, they need to have that connection. So, I think, being good team players, absolutely number one.
One of the things we always did at the Academy, for instance, with our new cadets is we would spend the first probably six weeks just developing them as a team. Never mind leadership, be a team. Take different roles in a team, be good team players. I think, that's trait number one. And there are some people who just aren't team players. And those people don't make leaders. We've all met them. I think, you and I have met some particular ones and we could probably exchange names on. So, that's number one.
Secondly, they need to know then how to build a team, how to get the best out of people. And that's all about those human characteristics of understanding others, being open to others, accepting others, being inclusive, understanding what different people bring to a team in different ways. And again, not everyone is equipped to do that. Some people find that very straightforward. Other people seem to find it really, really difficult. Particularly, embracing the diversity that a team can offer you, which, ironically, is the strength of the team. The whole point of a team is having diverse talents, diverse knowledge, diverse experience, diverse perspectives. So, having that ability, that trait of being able to build a team, I think that's really important.
And then, the final one, and for me in some way, (I’ve gone the other way around) possibly, the most important is selflessness- appreciating that leadership is about putting other people before you. Because that's what the role is. The role is supporting and enabling others to give their best. That's what leadership is at its absolute heart. At least, it is in my formulation.
Again, and I don't wish to be always harking back to Sandhurst. Sandhurst, I think, very neatly encapsulates this in its mortal three words: ‘Serve to lead’. Not lead to serve but serve to lead. And that for our cadets- it was repeated to them, drummed into them, reemphasized that every single time. And we would look for it even in the simplest behaviours. So, if they were in charge of a group in the field, and when it comes to lunchtime, who eats first? Is it the leader or is it the team? And you would notice those guys and gals who made sure other people were looked after before their needs were attended to. For me, that's hugely significant and it makes an incredible impression on the team also. I think, that's where leadership really is, If I was really put in a corner.
Binod Shankar:
Well, I would have been kicked out of the army immediately because I would have always eaten first.
Ian:
I know how much you eat as well, Binod, so there wouldn't be anything left for anyone else.
I think little things like that are so important and are missing in the commercial world when I left the Sandhurst. I see senior people enjoying all these wonderful luxuries as if they were so somehow kind of entitled to all this, and not doing that basic thing of looking after their people, making sure that people are given treats and a little bit of luxury here and there. We know that with great rank comes great privilege (I’m not denying that). But I think sometimes people forget how these things are perceived.
I remember working with one organization, and we were all traveling. I was a consultant, I was traveling with them. And the more senior people, turned left on the aircraft, and the less senior people went the other way. And just at that moment, you can just feel we're not all in the same team here, are we? There's one team up there and there's another team down there. And I think moments like that can be quite powerful.
Binod Shankar:
Talking about turning left or right when you’re in the aircraft reminds me of one of my last corporate positions, where my boss claimed to be one of the boys, and team members, and cost cutting. And immediately after we boarded the aircraft, he turned left and we all obediently turned right; and post flight he humbly explained to us that the ticket had been bought already. So, it would be a waste of timeBut that's an interesting perspective.
Talking about leadership behaviours, Ian, I want to dig into this a little bit further, because this is quite an issue. We all know, it's usually tough to change leadership behaviours, thanks to the combined effect of extraordinary career success, lack of meaningful feedback to the leader, and a circle of sychophants (kiss asses) surrounding the leader. Now, all this basically puts the leader in a bubble, where he's insulated from any genuine feedback. And that prevents him or her from changing in any meaningful way. Now, what from your experience, and/or observation are the three factors that drive change in individuals at that level?
Ian:
Okay. I think, three things for me, that might be useful for your listeners to think about.
The first step is- don't see leadership as an individual pursuit, see leadership as a collective endeavour. Organizations required leaderships, a bunch of people, a bunch of leaders who have roughly the same value set, understand the organization in the same way, have a similar sort of set of priorities. A leadership. We’ve got lots of leaders in the organizations. We don't have many leaderships. And I think that's number one. Think about it in a collective sense. We get obsessed by individuals.
I mean, it's interesting, even in our conversation, I can imagine folks listening to this, (if they can understand my Scottish accent) would probably be conceiving of particular individuals when we’re talking about leaders, leadership states, and so on, and imagining individuals. I'm trying to think of collectives. How do we make a collective endeavour? Because then you've got a peer group who can challenge each other, who can police each other's behaviour, who can teach each other and say, “Hey, that's not how we do things here, that's not how we are, that's not our set of values”. And in some organizations, you get that, but not many.
We are obsessed with individuals.
We're obsessed with giving people psychometric tests. We must be the most psychometric generation to ever walk God's green earth. I don't know what the evidences says that it is any good. I mean, there are so many ENTJ’s walking around looking for an INTJ…, whatever the other one is, to meet up with. This obsession within individualism, I think, gets in the way of leadership.
Talking about coaching, I think coaching is a fantastic thing. I think coaching's great. I think it works best if it's group coaching, where the leaders can actually access each other as well as a coach. So, the feeling is that they're working together and developing as a group not just honing their super skills as individuals. So, I think that's number one, the collective piece.
The second is; very old idea, ‘develop the skills of followership’. How do people become good followers? And good followers aren't just as you say, sycophants, yes-men and women who just go along. A good follower is someone who becomes, what we used to term in the British civil service, a ‘critical friend’. Someone who is on your side, but will challenge you and say, “Hey, is that really the best we can do? Could we use the resources differently? Have we made the right choices? What's the evidence to suggest (this)”? Challenging you- that's what a good follower does, because good followers help you refine your decision making, your thinking, the leadership that you can bring to a group. So, developing followership, really, really powerful. And remember, we're all followers. Bob Dylan once said, “You’ve got to serve someone”. At some point, you're serving someone, unless of course, you are actually Sunak. And even then, you're serving your electorate. So, the skills of followership.
And then the final thing is something more structural. It's about decision making. In all organizations that I have worked with, and for, I observe how decision making gets very quickly focused in the hands or the brains of very few people. And that makes for exactly the kind of egotistical, non-challengeable leaders that you're referring to. I think, you need to rethink about decision making. How do you allocate decision rights, so that people are properly empowered and accountable to make decisions? And again, there are lessons from organizations, from which we can learn about how to do that. But, I think, you can't just change human behaviour. You've also got to change some of the structures. And I think, one of the structures is how do we make decisions and how do we give people those decision-making rights?
Go into most organizations, as you do, and ask your colleague or your client, “What decisions are you empowered to make. How does your decision-making begin and end? And most people are not sure. And I think, that's something that we could do. And we can learn from our bureaucratic organizations like the civil service, for instance. The Civil service is very good at allocating, “Ian, you can make these decisions, Binod makes that decision, but you can recommend to Binod”, and so on and so forth. So, I think, that's the third factor for me.
Binod Shankar:
Interesting, I was thinking of three points that you made: collective effort, followership; and the last one, which was actually more fascinating, because you're talking about the structure, the process, because as you said, many organisations…
Ian:
I am a Social psychologist Binod I am always about the environment!
If you change the environment, you can change people's behaviour. It's much harder for people's behaviour to change an environment than it is for an environment to change people's behaviour. So, if you and I go to a pop concert tonight, yeah, don't worry, we won't. But if we did, we would both do the same sorts of things. We'd sit down, we'd cheer, we'd clap. We would behave appropriately to the environment. If we then went to a mosque, or we went to a synagogue, or we went to a church, we would behave appropriately to the environment. Organizations are just the same. And those environments aren't just physical. They're the environment of practices and policies that we put in place. So shape those if we want to shape behaviours, would be the advice or my observation. Does that make sense?
Binod Shankar:
Absolutely. I think, structures and processes are quite underplayed, and are not understood. And as a result, you have this huge concentration of authority and responsibility at the very top, to the extremes where you see sometimes in organizations and in certain parts of the world, (and I think you know what I'm talking about) where the chairman or CEO has to sign off, if you need to buy stationery for the office, all the way to building a plant, or buying a car. So, that's absurd. But that results in, I think, people feeling, how do you say, ‘helpless’, or without authority to make decisions? And that's not good for anyone who's striving to get ahead, or who is half smart.
Ian:
Completely.
I mean, we always say that the three big drivers of workplace motivation, are a sense of achievement and ranking, and recognition for your achievement, a sense of belonging to your team, your group, your organization, your purpose, your professional identity, but thirdly, the sense of control. How much control do I have?
Now, we all know what we're getting paid to do a job. So, we don't have 100% control, but we're also bringing our labour, our expertise or experience. So, we kind of expect control over some aspects, and I think, often in organizations, that's kind of forgotten. And we don't play up to that enough, I think. Ironically, when people talk to me about the military… of course, in the military, everyone just does what they're told, or what comes from above, blah, blah, blah. Nothing could be further from the truth. I mean, you wouldn't last half an hour in a modern battlefield if you behaved like that. You have to be agile, you have to empower soldiers at the lowest possible rank to be able to make decisions which may save their lives. You can't wait for General Binod to sign a paper back in a chateau, to come down the ranks, before we can act. So, we can learn from some of that kind of agilities as well. But that's another conversation perhaps. But I think decision making and the decision-making environment is absolutely crucial here.
Binod Shankar:
I want to stay with this whole fascinating topic of leadership behaviours. And one behaviour I've seen in many professionals I know who are in their 30s and 40s, Ian, is clinging to a specific identity, a specific story of who they are. And these stories are like, “I'm like this, or “I never do this”, “why I'm known for this”, or “I should be doing this”; whatever this is. And from my coaching conversations or other conversations that I have with people in that cohort, 30s and 40s, some of them are slowly realizing that this identity is probably not serving them well. And it's actually holding them back from leadership positions. Now, my question here, another conundrum for you to crack, is how do you modify your identity to reach your ultimate goal?
Ian:
You only ask the easy questions, don't you Binod? I mean, come on.
I think there's a couple of things, and you know this better than I do, given the kind of coaching what you do though, how easy it is sometimes as the coach or the sort of quasi therapist; you start to identify these kind of derailers very early on, these sort of narratives that folks have created about themselves, the classic one. And I know many of your listeners have heritage in Pakistan, or India, and so on. And so, you may find this is a ludicrous sort of view. But in the United Kingdom, the number of people you will meet, who will simply say, “I can't do numbers, I just don't do numbers”.
Now, I remember saying this to an Indian friend of mine, and she looked at me, she said, “Ian, this is like someone saying, I don't do words”. But people in Britain will always wear it as a badge of honour, that they're not good with finance, they're not good with numbers. And of course, by constantly telling themselves this they are, as you say, they're closing off avenues.
So, I think there's a couple of things that are possible here. The first step is working with someone like you, frankly, or a good mentor, or just a good colleague to act as that mirror that says, “hey, look, you're seeing things which just don't make any sense, you're holding back your ambition”. That would be number one.
The second is change the people you're with. There's an old behavioural science (sort of) adage, which is, “If you want somebody to get fat, hang around with fat people; if you want to get them to smoke, hang around with smokers; if you want them to get really fit, get them hanging around really fit people; if you want…” and so on. Good role models, working with other people, seeing what can be done, that makes an enormous difference, I believe. And it gives people that belief that actually, “If Binod can do it, I can do this”.
And I know, you're like me. You've spent a lot of time teaching. And often those golden moments you get in teaching is when you can see people say, “hey, this isn't as hard as I thought it was; or it was hard, but now I've climbed Everest, and I can see the top”. And I think, that kind of helping structure helps as well. So, I said good coach, mentor, and, and think about the professional circle and network you have expanded. If you want to be great at finance stuff, and really kind of soak it up, then you're going to have to hang out with finance guys. I mean, I can't imagine anything worse, Binod.
Binod Shankar:
I was about to say that, but you took the words out of my mouth Ian.
Ian:
I'm told accountants have a great time. I don't know if I ever told you my accountant-actuary joke. So, there's an accountant and there's an actuary, and they meet at a party. How can you tell which one is the extrovert? He's looking at the other guy's shoes! Yeah. It's a psychology joke.
Binod Shankar:
Yeah. Look, I mean, I'm sure we could go on for hours, perhaps even days and weeks talking about so many topics, given that we have so many common topics to talk about, from leadership, psychology, and especially my obsession with all things military and army, where, we could talk we could talk about wars, and battles, and generals, and disasters, and victories. And that probablywe’ll leave it for a later meeting, when I'm in that part of the world, or you come down to the Middle East.
So, I'm going to have to ask you a very important question, which I almost always ask my guests (from their experience, of course), which is, “What are your top three tips, Ian, for anyone who is already at mid or senior management level, and who is aspiring to leadership”? I mean, they're not there yet. They're probably in their late 30s, early 40s, mid 40s, and feeling stuck perhaps. Maybe their identity is holding them back, like we talked about earlier. But what would be your go to recipe for success at that level?
Ian:
I’m sure, you get lots and lots of very good answers from people, from different perspectives. But I'll give you three.
The first step is- listen more, and better, to the people that you aspire to lead. Because if you're going to lead these folks, find out more about them, listen to them. What's their hopes, their fears, their concerns, their interests. Because when you get the opportunity to lead, it's their interests that you will be representing. Remember, that you're leading to enable them. You're not leading just so that you get a bigger office, or a fatter salary that may come with it. That's not what your purpose should be. So, listen more and better. And by better, I mean, really, listen. Most of us are not very good at listening, I'm terrible at listening, I've been told this for so long now I can’t do anything about it. But listening with real intent, I think is really important. Get to know them better.
The second thing is work on stakeholder management. Get to know people in the organization. Work out how you can manage them, because that's going to be a big part of your job as you start to kind of get through the organization. So again, understanding other people- what's important to them;how can I serve them if I was in a more elevated position”? So, I think that's really important.
And then the third part is, work on your capability, train for the future. Think about the capabilities you're going to require. There are three things in here, I would say: one is research what's happening in your sector, industry, market, customer base? What's going to happen? What you call in the military- ‘deep battle’. What's going to go on out there that's going to affect us, maybe six months from now, maybe 18 months from now, but it's coming? So, you're getting ahead of this. Research it. And there's many ways you can do that, as we all know. So, research.
Number two, find out how your business is planning now. We will look at annual reports, we look at statements, at the organization's objectives and so on. And they sometimes make sense, they sometimes don't. Work hard to interpret them. Speak to the people who helped draft them. How are they going to deal with what's happening? What you're doing here is you're giving yourself that more strategic view. You're starting to understand better how things connect, and people will start to notice.
And then, on the next level down, think about your team, your function, your unit, your professional skill set. Where does it need to change in order, again, to be capable in the future? And again, you're thinking, “Well, what knowledge? What skills will people need? What will I need? What structural changes would this organization need? So, you're constantly planning and thinking of the future, like a little kind of strategic planning engine of your own. You start doing these things, and you'll soon start to get noticed. But more importantly, when opportunity does knock, you’d be ready to seize that opportunity, I hope, and be prepared for it. You can step in.
It's one thing to aspire to some of these leadership positions. But you and I, and I've seen many folks who find themselves in these positions, and they're not prepared. They don't know what's coming. They don't really understand their organization, they certainly don't understand the people, they don't understand the environment, the wider competitive environment, and they find themselves at sea very quickly. So, it's not just about preparing yourself for elevation, it's preparing yourself to be able to operate, when you find yourself in that position.
Binod Shankar:
Reminds me of the Boy Scout Motto, “Be prepared”, which, I think, aptly sort of captures the essence of what you said in the last point of identifying the capabilities for the future in mind. And before that, you talked about listening more and better to the people. And second point was work hard on stakeholder management. I think three very, very practical, very obviously strategic initiatives that anyone aspiring to leadership should think very seriously about, which they often don't.
Ian:
I think so. And broadening that stakeholder base as well outside, or wherever your functional area is. Getting to know people right across your organization always pays off. It's incredible what you learn from them. And it always pays off at some point.
Binod Shankar:
I can identify with that second point of working hard with stakeholder management because I attribute some part of my success in some of the companies that I've worked with, to my ability to connect across departments, across divisions, across companies, where I was the face of my department and that made a huge difference because everyone knew you and you knew everyone, and you also knew what they want from you as well. So, that kind of managing…well, knowing your stakeholders, and then managing expectations and connecting with them at a strategic and tactical level can do wonders for your career profile and for the company as well, obviously.
Ian:
Yeah, I think the kind of way a lot of organizations are working now where they're either exclusively remote or hybrid situation, it's even more challenging sometimes to connect with people because we're doing it through screens and so on. But you've got to make that effort, that social capital that you build up, that's what you're investing in. And that’s what will pay off because then when those names are on name box grids, they'll say, “Oh, I know this guy”. I was working in an HR department and when we were looking at this strategic promotions, there were conversations where people would say, “Who’s she? I don't know him!” Other people were, “Well, I know so and so”! Well, that makes a huge difference. And for me, if people don't know you, you shouldn't even be in that top quadrant frankly, because you've failed one of the primary tests. That's why I could never function in HR, I'd be too tough.
Binod:
I think we should do a separate podcast on HR, and you and I would have a lot to talk and raise issues about. This is a conversation that I wanted to have with you for the longest time, because, although we worked in the same, shall we say, global organisation, we never got the opportunity to work together, which I always look upon as a missed opportunity. But I am trying to make that up by interviewing you on topics that fascinate both of us, and hopefully, they’ll prove to be fascinating for the listeners as well.
Ian:
Thank you so much, Dr Ian Stewart, for taking the time from your busy schedule. I know you’ve got a hectic life, doing what you’re doing right now. And thank you once again for preparing and coming on the show. And looking forward to connecting with you whenever you’re in this part of the world. I don’t know when that is going to be, but whenever that is!
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