Episode 37: Win before you play
It’s rare to find professionals who are successful, authentic and articulate, that too in banking.
I sat down with Deepak for this interview because I’ve known him for close to a decade and we have had many deep, long, intellectual discussions about the human condition, specifically careers and leadership. He possesses not just a remarkable amount of self-awareness and big picture perspective but also a willingness to articulate these quite boldly and compellingly. He’s also a practitioner in asset management.
We dig into mentoring, his career evolution, why leadership escapes many, avoiding the mid-life crisis, the future of asset management, who will survive the disruption, his next book, five career tips for senior professionals and more.
You can check the entire video episode on youtube or enjoy reading the transcript below.
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Binod Shankar:
This is Binod Shankar and you’re listening to the real finance mentor podcast from the realfinancementor.com. The real finance mentor is your go-to resource for insight and inspiration on careers in finance, CFA and more. Now you might think, why this podcast? Well, my goal is to deliver insight and inspiration for your financial career, by making it, one: relatable. I mean this is not theoretical stuff. We zero-in on the critical, practical issues. Number two: authentic. No bullshit, no side-stepping. The topics, guests and questions are all from that perspective. And number three: insightful. Take a Chartered accountant and a CFA charter holder, add 17-plus years as a corporate warrior, mix in 10-plus years of entrepreneurship, and throw in a decade of full-time CFA training. Add speaking, mentoring, cycling, mountaineering and other endurance activities, and that’s me! Welcome to The Real Finance Mentor, or as I call it: RFM.
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Binod Shankar
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Hi everyone! This is Binod Shankar here with the real finance mentor Podcast, the podcast that brings you insight and inspiration for your careers. Today I have another guest who will throw light on many of the questions that most people have, regarding careers and leadership.
My next guest is Deepak Mehra. So, first of all, his resume.
Deepak is head of investment at the Commercial Bank of Dubai and he's based in Dubai. The bank is listed on the Dubai Financial Market and is one of the leading banks in the United Arab Emirates.
Deepak started his career at CitiBank, where he joined as manager of its mortgage business in Delhi and Bangalore. He then moved to Citi in Dubai, many years ago, when he was the Middle East-Head for its investments and bank assurance business, targeting mainly non-resident Indians. After short stints at Dubai bank, Credit Suisse and Dubai First, he joined his current employer, Commercial Bank of Dubai. He has been there for the last 15 years.
Deepak comes with some impeccable credentials. He's a graduate of the Indian Institute of Technology, Banaras Hindu University Varanasi, and has an MBA from the prestigious Institute of Management Technology (IMT), Ghaziabad.
Deepak is also a published author, no less. In 2015, Deepak’s book ‘Ready steady go’ was published by Jaico publishing house, a leading publishing house in India. Deepak is also a regular guest on Bloomberg, where he opines on financial matters.
Of course, as all of you know, I have very special people on the show. Now, the reason I invited Deepak, is not just because he's a banker, (I know a lot of bankers) but it’s because I've known him for close to a decade, if my memory serves me right. We have had many deep, long, intellectual discussions about the human condition, specifically careers and leadership. I found him to possess not just a remarkable amount of self-awareness and a big picture perspective, but also willingness to articulate this quite boldly, and compellingly, which, as you can imagine, are not common attributes of people in higher levels of management.
Deepak, this is going to be another one of our chats, with the big difference that many others will get the privilege to hear your words of wisdom. Thank you for agreeing to this interview.
Deepak:
Thank you so much, Binod. You know how much I respect you, and your wisdom about these matters. about life in general; and I think we've had so many conversations around these subjects, it'd be one more of those. I'm really looking forward to it. Thank you so much.
Binod:
So, let's jump into the questions which I have (a lot) prepared to ask you, Deepak. First is, I’m sure you've mentored many professionals over your long career. What do you look for before you mentor anyone?
Deepak:
Yeah, Binod, that's not an easy one to get it right, because what I see around myself is people who are not very much aware of themselves, or who do not really have a plan about the future.
So, what I do look for in a person, is somebody who's given it a bit of a thought, who has thought about where he is heading, who probably has some idea of his own skills and abilities, and how he can reach there. So, I tend to look for people who have at least a beginning of self-awareness, because without that you can't get anywhere. So, I tend to follow the usual coaching model, which is called the GROW Model, the G-R-O-W, which is: “What are your goals? What is your reality? And then what are the options in front of you, and how will you move into the way ahead”? So that's how I look at people.
So, people who have defined their goals, (actually, you know, and I know) that's about 50% of the battle won. Because how many people actually sit down and write their goals? We all say that goals are very important, but how many of us actually do that? So, somebody who's done it or somebody who can articulate his goals is 50% there. And then, of course, we can work with him to find out his realities, his levels of skills, and that again requires some level of awareness- ‘What are my strengths? What are my weaknesses? And therefore, based on my strengths and weaknesses, what are the options that I have in front of me? And then what are the options that I will choose”?
So, that is the process that I can help them with. And that is mentoring for me, Binod. That's how I look at it. So, it's difficult. Not everyone can go through a mentoring process, everyone cannot be a good mentee. I think, that also requires a bit of skills.
Binod:
Sticking to the same topic of mentoring, Deepak, we are both at that stage and age of life and career we have we have been mentored ourselves over the past few decades, by many people. So, who has been your mentor and/or mentors? And what impact did that mentoring have on you on a professional and personal front probably as well?
Deepak:
I think, professionally, I have observed a lot of people and got mentored. I've never had a single mentor who I have worked with. So, I have not had the pleasure of that. But I like to pick up qualities from different people I meet, and pick up whatever best I can from them. What are the things that I can do? What are the things I can avoid? So, observing people, is probably the biggest mentorship I get all around me. The good and the bad, what to do and what to avoid.
But yeah, talking about mentors in specific, I think, from the childhood I have been mentored by my father. I think the most important thing he did was put me on the path of excellence, on the path of hard work, on the path of drive and hunger for achievement.
So, I remember very vividly, I was in class six, and I was a very average student. I was a sort of a student who used to be scared of getting the report card home because I would always get the 60-61%, 65% marks. And my father was a gold medalist throughout his life- in his engineering, postgraduate and so on. So, he didn't like where his son was heading. So, one day I remember he told me…we were sitting outside in our garden, and he showed me a rickshaw puller going outside on the street, and he says, ‘Do you see this guy who's pulling the rickshaw? Do you know how hard he works’? I said, ‘Yeah, he works very hard, throughout the days, having three-four people to sit behind, and he has to then manually drive that rickshaw around’. So, he said, “My son, this is the only money that we've got for you. We can buy you a good rickshaw, not the old one, we’ll buy a new one, but this is what you will do if you continue the way you are in your academics. This is the best we can do for you- buy your rickshaw”.
That, Binod, gave me nightmares after that. We used to go around in rickshaws in those days, and you can see the plight of the rickshaw puller. And I imagined myself doing that. And I think, that is when the turning point came, and I never looked back. After that day, I was straight on, top ranking in every class, after that day probably. Suddenly something happened. I thank my father for that.
And then of course, my I got an opportunity to stay with my grandfather, because my father was sent overseas on deputation. So, three years or so, I stayed with my grandfather. He was a very spiritual man, luckily, not religious or ritualistic. He was a doctor. He told me some things which made sense much later in life. But the seeds were sown then, and he said, “Look, we are all connected. We are one consciousness, you, me, and everyone around- the living, the nonliving beings, we are all one”, because he was a man of science. That gave me a perspective of much bigger things, that we are part of something much bigger in life. That probably brings the perspective that I get every time I see a problem.
And he said, “Look, we are the ocean, we are not the droplets of the ocean that emerge from it and go back to it. People talk about the soul and consciousness”…he says, “you are the ocean, you're not the droplet”. So, that was a very revealing thing, which I understood, partly then, but partly much later. And I think, these are the sorts of things that have formed me, Binod, over the years, rather than reading books, and introspection. And I think, I am, myself, the best mentor I can get when I'm introspecting, when I'm absorbing, when I'm learning from everyone around me.
Binod:
I mean, I'm fascinated by how people change over long periods of time, Deepak, and I have certainly changed. People have remarked how much I have changed, that's how I know. I won’t mention the changes because of the many cringe worthy acts of omission/commission will become public knowledge. I know you think deeply or honestly, about both, yourself and others. If you look back 30 years, can you tell me three key ways in which you've evolved, in basically two separate areas- one is in the way you manage yourself?
Deepak:
I think, something that I touched upon, and probably we'll talk more about it during the discussion today, is the biggest change I've felt from the time I started working to now is, when I finally realized the importance of self-awareness, and I think the turning point about self-awareness came…the clarity came when I read Eckhart Tolle 's book, “The Power of Now’ and “A new earth”, both these books. And that changed my life. That led to me becoming a sort of an observer of my own self. Rather than just playing a role and getting caught up in what's happening in our life, I could then take a step back, and observe myself as somebody on the theater playing a role, and then observe myself dispassionately, in a detached manner.
And it's very important to be dispassionate, you don't have to really be harsh on yourself, because we keep doing acts of omission and commission that, like you rightly said, are cringe worthy. But then if you're observing yourself from a distance, eventually, that detachment happens, and you can actually start directing yourself. Or if not directing yourself, at least you can start introspecting and learning from that.
Saying that, self-awareness is a very big exercise. And it's a simple thought experiment. I can do it right now. If I tell you, “Binod, think about a sweet mango, and think about how juicy it is in your mouth, right now”, and you think about it. And then now I tell you, “Binod, look back. Did you think about a mango”? You'll say “Yes, I thought about a mango”. So, that that means you're not the thinker Binod. Because you just looked at yourself, a while ago, thinking about a mango, that means you are not the thinker. That means, you can observe yourself. That means, you don't have to get caught up in the day-to-day flooding of action around you, you can detach. So, I think that is one of the biggest learnings that came in my life.
And the second one is…something I touched upon earlier also…is developing the big picture, the big, general purpose of life- “What am I doing? Was I just born to study hard, get into a good college, get a good job, slog, fight the politics in the company and then earn money and then pay my bills”? That's about it? No, I think there is a bigger meaning to life and the bigger meaning of life has to be explored and we need to work towards it. And therefore, that gives you the big picture perspective, that makes you calm eventually.
It's like the story. You may have heard the story of the stone cutters. So, a man walks into a village and he finds a very large construction site, and he finds people sitting there breaking stones. He goes to the first one and says, “What are you doing here? What are you guys doing”? So, he says, “Don't you see I'm cutting stones? Don't disturb me”. He goes ahead and finds another stone cutter, and says “what are you guys doing”? He says, “Come on, don't disturb me. Just get going, we are cutting stones. Don't you have eyes? Can't you see”? He moves a little further, he sees another stone cutter who was singing and humming and breaking stones. He says, “What are you doing here”? He says, “Oh, look at what we are doing. We are going to be building the biggest fruit and vegetable market in the village. And this is where all the vegetables and fruits will be coming to be to be sold. I am working to build that. And you know what? When this market is ready, we, my family and all other farmers, will be able to sell our vegetables at better prices faster. Vegetables will not be destroyed. We’ll have more employment; we’ll have more money. And that's why I'm so happy and I'm singing and humming”.
He's doing the same job as every other stone cutter but he was calm and happy because he saw the bigger picture.
So, I think, these are the sort of revelations that, when they happen in your life, your perspective changes, and you can ride a much higher level, rather than just getting caught in the frenzy.
So, these are the sort of ways in which I have changed myself radically and I was quite an ordinary Joe Blogg but with a lot of practice and reading and understanding and introspection, these changes have come about.
Binod:
What are the three ways which have evolved in the way you manage others?
Deepak:
I think that is another very interesting one, because we've been theoretically, and in our education, have been brought up saying that, “yeah, managing others means getting things done, very task oriented, very one-way oriented communication and so on”. The things that I learnt is: one, you do not have to manage anyone, you do have to engage with people. People are smart enough to do and manage their jobs. Your job as a manager is to engage with them.
Now, what does engagement mean? Engagement means a two-way communication, not a one-way communication. Engagement means a connection of the heart, not just of the head, not just mechanical directions and mechanical conversations, but more of a connection where you actually get to know people better. Different people have different goals, different aspirations. Different strokes for different folks. So, understanding that everyone is unique, everyone is a human being, everyone has a family or personal life, his/her own challenges, his/her own life behind ensuring (and not just saying for the sake of words) that they actually need a balanced life, helping them grow, pushing them when required, mentoring them even if they don't ask to be mentored.
These are the connections of the heart. This is how you would manage somebody who's your child, or who's somebody in your house, who's younger than you; how would you conduct with them? I'm not saying you become sympathetic, and you become soft. No, no way. By having empathy. These are people you spend 8-10 hours in a day with. So, you can't just have a mechanical relationship.
A lot of people mistake what engagement as that thing- cracking a few jokes, or taking them out for drinks, or going out for lunch and meeting over the weekend, or sharing jokes is engagement. None of these are engagement, these are very transactional processes which are very superfluous and you can know that this person has nothing better to engage with, and hence, he's doing these, again, mechanical acts. None of this is required. Engagement is a matter of heart.
So, I think, changing the way we deal with people, using your heart engaging, developing people, mentoring them, and helping them achieve their full potential, I think is the way I've changed over the years, Binod.
Binod:
I mean, going from individual contributor, to team leader, to manager, altogether, is a big journey, it’s a long journey. A lot of people don't make it. You're obviously a leader, where you are right now and you have been for some time. Now, there are many means by which you can become an effective leader. I mean, you can learn by observing your bosses, by feedback from colleagues and superiors, by getting a mentor or a coach, by reading 11 books, or listening to podcasts. I mean, there are so many ways. Some of these have worked for me, especially feedback and reading. But it's quite individual, quite subjective. So, I'm just curious, what are the three top methods by which you developed your own leadership skills, and why those methods worked for you?
Deepak:
So, I think it is very clear that I did not have one single mentor and I keep taking inputs from everywhere.
Podcasts, YouTube videos, books…it was books only, earlier, podcasts have made life much easier. I can listen to them while I'm driving, while I'm doing something else, while I'm exercising in my gym and so on.
So, the way I take knowledge is through all these methods- my leadership ideas or thoughts are coming through these inputs. So, remaining open to input is very important. But remaining open to inputs comes when you realize that you need inputs. So, some of us get so lost in their own existence, that they don't think that they needed any more inputs and that could be one of the stumbling blocks towards leadership development. So being humble, at least to understand that, you know, there is more to learn is the starting point, and then being open to all these inputs that can come through anything, even a conversation like ours today can be an input for somebody.
But that's one part. The second step in this process is then observing yourself, how you behave. I mean, this is getting in touch with the reality. So, I've got inputs, I've got thoughts, but then analyzing myself, introspecting, observing myself, and finally practicing what I've learned. Now, you can't change unless you practice and then observe, practice and observe. So, new inputs, practice and observe. So, it's a cycle. And, and we are all learning, I'm still learning. I still think that I'm somewhere in the in the journey and haven't really covered even probably half of it, there is so much more to learn. So, it's an ongoing exercise, but it begins with the first realization that I have something else to learn. I think that's, in a nutshell, the leadership development journey if you if you put it that way.
Binod:
So, Deepak your LinkedIn profile shows an unbroken career in banking, ever since you joined Citibank in 1992, through Credit Suisse, Dubai bank, and right now, Commercial Bank of Dubai, where you've been for 15 years, since 2007, at the same place. Over all that is three decades in banking, and you seem to be still going strong. I know many senior professionals, including commercial/private bankers, investment bankers, and quite a few are already bored after spending 15 to 20 years, or sometimes even less in the same industry. They feel stagnant, they want a change. So, I have a few questions for you here. First question is, why, do you think are the three main reasons so many people get dissatisfied with their careers and lives once they hit their late 30s or early 40s?
Deepak:
Yeah, that's a good observation Binod, and I see the same around me.
I think, the primary reason goes back to the first principles- lack of goals, lack of planning, lack of clarity of purpose. Clarity of purpose is a very wide term, but yeah, just put it this way, that lack of defined goals, and how to achieve those goals, and eventually, a lack of prioritization. Because you may have a lot of goals, but how do you prioritize them? So, when these numerous goals and numerous aspirations that you're carrying all the while with you, and you're working really hard to achieve, do not all materialize, or some materialize and some don't, and in many cases, none materialize because of the lack of prioritization. That leads to boredom, that leads to frustration, and that leads to cynicism, where you say, “look, the system is all useless, my organization is at fault, my boss is useless”, and so on.
But I think, it's the lack of prioritization of different goals, because of which…if you can't prioritize your goals, actually, you can't achieve anything, it's that simple. And that is the primary reason for this midlife crisis, boredom, frustration, and so on.
It's a very nice story that, that made this thing clear to me many years ago. And this is a story about… (not many people have read about it, but you can check it out) Warren Buffett. Warren Buffett owns many companies, and he keeps buying small companies, and he likes to mentor people who are working in those companies. So, he was mentoring one of the senior executives, somebody called Smith; and he said, “Smith, what are your goals”? So, Smith said, “I work hard, Warren, and you know, we are doing a great job. That is my goal”. He says, “No, no, no, what are your goals? So, I want you to write down 10 goals that you have for yourself in your life”. Now, that was a very big challenge for Smith, but he sat down, you know, he cracked his head and finally, put down 10 goals, something like saying, “I want to have $5 million in my bank account, I want to have a holiday home in the hills. I want to buy a fancy car. And I want to send my children to Ivy League schools. I want to have my own start-up; I want to be a CEO”. And then after that he wrote down…he says, “I want people to respect me, and I want fame. I want to be physically fit, and I want to have good relationships around me”. So, these were his 10 goals that he wrote down.
So, Warren said, “Okay, these are great. Now, Smith, why don't you highlight three goals that you're going to work on”. So that was even more difficult. He says, “Look, I want to have $5 million. I want to become a CEO, I want to have my fancy car”, he circled these three goals. So, Warren Buffett again, asked him saying, “Are you sure these are the most relevant goals in your life today? And do you think that these goals can lead you to the other seven goals”? Now this was a very difficult question because, “yeah, these are my big goals, I want to achieve this. But are these the most relevant or there is something else? Do these goals lead me to the other seven goals”?.
He got very confused. So, Warren, of course, mentored him said, “Look, boss, what are the things that will lead you to the other seven goals, let's identify those three”. And after a lot of help, Smith then circled, saying, “Yeah, actually, a good health is more important than $5 million, because if I'm not healthy, and if I can't sleep well at night, and my body is not physically fit properly, I'll die before I earn by $5 million”. So, he changed it.
And then he said, “Ah, having a good quality of relationships around me is more important than buying a holiday home in the hills”, quickly changed it. He realized, “yeah, that's correct. Because if I have a good quality of relationships, I will have a good balance of life. With my good balance of life, actually, I can be stress free, achieve much more in life and so on”.
And like that, he realized that the three basic goals that he found out were becoming physically fit, having great relationships around him, and number three, working to become respectful, and somebody who was looked upon as an expert in the industry. “Very good”. So, now Warren asked him, says, “this is fine. Now, tell me Smith, what will you do with the other seven goals”?
So, Smith was very quick in saying, “Look, these are three top goals. And these are the three goals I'll focus most of my time on. And the other seven, I will work on them. But I'll give them less time. However, they will remain my secondary goals to work on”. So, Warren Buffett almost jumped from his chair, and he says, “This is where you're going wrong, my friend. When you decided on your three goals, you need to eliminate the remaining seven. Otherwise, you will work on all the 10 goals, which you are doing today and not achieving any”.
So, prioritization actually means elimination of goals, not just defining of goals, and many of us can't eliminate goals, and therefore we keep our hands in 10 different directions, and we don't achieve anything. And then we start not taking responsibility, blaming others, blaming the system, blaming the whole thing and getting bored, frustrated, and exactly what we just discussed. I think, that, for me, has been the biggest learning, and that is the biggest reason why people get frustrated, Binod, in their careers.
Binod:
So, as you know, Deepak, I like to dig deep and bring out people's personal stories, and bring out the authenticity. So, did you go through this midlife career crisis phase yourself and how do you navigate that?
Deepak:
Yeah, luckily, I escaped it, because I had many things helping me realize this. Many things that happened around me, unfortunate events; which probably were eye opening, and sent me into the path of realization. This turning probably happened at the age of 35.
I also saw in Citibank around me, young people in their mid-30s, late 30s, having heart problems, Binod. That was very revealing, and people were having heart attacks. They had stents put they, had angina issues, I mean, a lot of health issues. I also realized at some stage, that I was myself, not able to sleep well, I had some sort of tingling in my finger tips and so on, which was like the initial signs of becoming a nervous, sort of getting into nervous problems where, if you don't check, you can actually have health related issues or a nervous breakdown at some stage because of the tremendous amount of pressure.
These things which I saw around me and which were happening to me, actually helped me take a very quick decision of quitting Citibank when I was 35 years old, 11 years into my job. And luckily, at the same time, another new bank was being set up by a boss of mine. He lived in a completely different world, in an alternative space. He was the most chilled out man, the most sorted out man, he had his priorities right. He could get things done without getting stressed. He was a great man. And so, I got an opportunity to work with him. Quit Citibank. That was when my second…my younger daughter was born. People said I was crazy leaving Citibank, especially when I was doing extremely well over there. But I had to do it and I've never looked back, and I think that was the best decision I took. And yes, so I went through it, but I was lucky I came out on the right side of it.
Binod Shankar:
We've talked so far in this segment about reasons why many get dissatisfied in their careers and how you went through that, you avoided that phase or cleverly sidestepped that. Going back to my original question, Deepak, given your longevity in this industry, which is not that common, especially given your level of engagement and motivation, what are the three things that have kept you going in the same industry for so long?
Deepak Mehra:
I think, one, the industry is very interesting. I just love the global markets, there is so much happening, it's changing every minute, every hour. As I'm deeply involved in it, it just keeps me in new things, new challenges, new opportunities, new solutions to work on for our clients, new products to create, and learning. There is so much of learning in this.
The second important thing is upgrading my skills. I think when you realize the enormity of this industry and this space you work in, you realize that you know nothing even though you've been studying and practicing for so long. So, that itself, that ability to constantly keep learning and upgrading myself probably has helped me, and that has kept me in pace with what was the requirement.
But I think, that comes from the realization that as you know more, you realize you know even lesser and lesser about the whole world. Even 24 hours sometimes are less, in terms of gathering all the information and a lifetime is less in terms of learning all the things you want to learn. So, I think, those are the things that have kept me going. And of course, with that, I have been able to keep growing my job throughout.
My job titles may not have changed very often, but I have been able to grow my job because no one can stop you from taking on more responsibilities. So, as I've taken on more responsibilities, everyone has welcomed that. And as you take more responsibilities, you get your hands into many growth areas. I've been a sort of a startup guy, even though I've been working in a salaried job. I've been launching new projects, products, new businesses, new locations. So, for the last two decades, I've been more of a startup guy, and a startup expert in banking, rather than starting up new ventures as a salaried man. But I’ve always been reinventing stuff.
I think these are the sorts of things that have kept me going and I still feel very fresh. I've looked back and it doesn't appear that I've spent the last 30 years doing the job that I'm doing today. That's interesting, though.
Binod Shankar:
More power to you. Your response to the last question allows me to neatly segue from the personal side of Deepak Mehra to the professional work done by Deepak Mehra. You played a key role, Deepak, in launching ‘Investr’. (I.N.V.E.S.T.R) Commercial bank of Dubai's new Robo- Advisory investment app, that went live in April 2021. I find this fascinating because Commercial Bank of Dubai (CBD) has a reputation as a super conservative, cautious, slow-moving bank that's definitely or was not known for innovation. It's almost like a mini case study for the change management. I've got three questions here. The first one was- What were the key leadership (not technical) challenges in this project? I'm especially curious about innovation and cultural change within the organization.
Deepak Mehra:
Thank you very much. I think you're absolutely right. That has been one of the key achievements in the last two years, that we've become the first bank in the GCC to launch a full-fledged Robo- Advisory and execution app, standalone app. No bank has done it in the GCC yet. I think, the key learning here is that the culture of an organization is driven top-down. Culture is not set by the people at the bottom or in the middle, the culture is set at the top, and then it trickles down. What is done by the leaders is then followed by others.
We were lucky, we got a new CEO in 2017. He's a Ph.D. in artificial intelligence. When he came on board, the first thing he did was that he started digitizing every process, every product, and every opportunity, to make it more efficient, and so the Robo-Advisory was a part of that. The wealth management business had to be digitized, and that was a mandate given to me and we were able to achieve it because of the culture of innovation that was set in the organization, from the top which was trickling down. So, that was the biggest help. Else, you would obviously have challenges if you're going to maneuver a big ship- suddenly 180 degrees, it doesn't work! We were very lucky in doing that.
Binod Shankar:
I'm sure not everything went exactly according to plan, Deepak, in this massive digitization project, that's just reality. What were your key takeaways on the people side, post-implementation, looking back, that could have been handled or done better?
Deepak Mehra:
The success of this project, I would put it as a people’s success, and I think you rightly said, “it's the people’s side”. The success is a people’s success, because technology is technology, anyone could have implemented it. Why is it that we thought of it and why is it that we were able to implement it in record time? I think, it comes down to how you conduct a project, and that is something I've done many times in my career. I again, go back to the basic principle of saying that, “people know their jobs better than I do”.
A technology expert knows more about APIs and how they speak to each other than I would ever know. So, let people do their jobs and all we can do is keep them engaged, keep the team intact, thinking as one, and have that level of responsibility given to everyone; the level of authority given to everyone, so that they can drive their businesses and agendas to get the project rolling. But you cannot move away from accountability, the accountability still stays with the person who's leading the project.
So, give responsibilities, give authority, let everyone do their jobs, and treat everyone like an adult. They know their job better; they all came to work leaving their homes because they want to achieve something, so let them do their jobs. Give them a bigger sense of purpose, so that they know what they're working towards. Engage with them with your heart, connect with each one of them and then yet, stay fully accountable so that if something doesn't go the right way, you take the responsibility. You don’t dump and don't put one of the persons under the bus saying, “Look, he messed up”. You stay accountable, but give responsibilities. I think that's how we worked on this project. Those are the sort of learnings on the people’s side.
Binod Shankar:
This brings me to the burning issue of technology, humans, and employment. I'm a CFA charter holder and a member of the CFA Institute, and read a lot about these things. Many in the asset management industry are worried that innovations like Robo- advisory are just the beginning, the thin edge of the wedge. Automation of this huge multi-trillion-dollar industry may result in reduced hirings or even mass layoffs in the near-to-medium term. I wanted your thoughts on a couple of things. First, how would you see the impact of this automation as an example, of Robo-advisory as an example, on jobs and asset management, playing out over the next decade, globally?
Deepak Mehra:
There will be an impact. The traditional job of a fund manager and a traditional job of a relationship manager, where the value addition is very low, is likely to be at risk. But then, there'll be jobs created on the other side. The jobs will be created on data analytics, on managing technology, on running algorithms, on programming the algorithms, on running the artificial intelligence, coding, and so on. So, higher value-added jobs will come up.
As far as the asset management industry is concerned, I think it's very clear, you look at the S&P SPIVA report, which comes out every year and tells you the variance in performance of the active fund managers, and it shows year-on-year. This year's report shows that 95% of active managers in the large-cap space could not even achieve the index performance. If you look across all industries, all sectors, 85% of the managers across all actively managed funds could not achieve their benchmark performance. I think, the case for passive index investing is very strong.
What Robo advisory does is, it puts a twist, that index investing is great, but then within industries, how do you do the asset allocation, and that's where Robo advisory comes in, which is completely algorithm-driven, there is no artificial intelligence yet. It’s all algorithms that are making those decisions. Once you do all this, you actually get a better risk-weighted performance than an actively managed fund manager, who charges 2% or 1½% percent per annum, and yet 85% of them miss even achieving the index return.
So, yes, traditional asset management jobs will be at risk, more and more money will flow into these products. But then, as I said, “there will be opportunities created on the other side”. Likewise, on the relationship front-end side, banks are very keen to move the middle market and the lower end of the wealth management market and the affluent or mass affluent into digital solutions, where the front end can be hyper-personalized, thanks to the technology, but the back end gets industrialized.
And Human intervention or human interface will only be available for high-end private banking clients, whether it is worth it, where the value addition is there in terms of providing better service, not necessarily, again, beating the benchmark or thriving performance, but in providing the service to the customers who need it. Banks will not be able to provide it for retail customers, or affluent or mass affluent customers. That will go more into private banking and the rest will get digitized. There will be an impact. It's coming, and it's happening.
Binod Shankar:
My second question in the context of automation in asset management, Deepak, is, what can senior professionals- people with 15-20 years of experience, do to stay relevant in the face of these massive changes, and not turn into dinosaurs, in this new age of big data and AI and accompanying disruption?
Deepak Mehra:
I think it's very easy to become a dinosaur in this industry because it is changing so rapidly, and many, many people will be left behind. I think, the most important thing (and we go back to this again and again) is self-awareness.
Understand where you are, understand your skills, and understand where you lack skills. But you can't do all of this if you still live with a big ego and you think you know it all, and you think you've done it all. And because you're sitting on your laurels, you should continuously be appreciated and you should continuously grow, none of that will happen. In fact, anyone who thinks that he knows it all will become a dinosaur, for sure. That is the first sign. Knowing it all is the first sign of ignorance. I think, this is a wake-up call for everyone. We have to immerse ourselves in new technology, roll up our sleeves, and get back into upgrading our skills. You have to constantly learn.
Ask a good doctor; whether he is 40, 50, 60, or 70 years old, like I saw, in the case of my grandfather; he used to attend seminars and conferences, read journals (there was no internet in those days), and make notes. A doctor has to continuously learn, otherwise you'll become irrelevant.
Why shouldn't bankers and other professionals do that? Why can't they continuously learn? Learning doesn't mean taking another degree, diploma, or certificate; learning means learning. Get to know the subject, immerse yourself into it, and drop your ego, to begin with.
Binod Shankar:
You're also a published author, Deepak, and your book, ‘Ready Steady Go’ came out in 2015. That was a concise and practical guide on education, upskilling, and careers. It's been seven years and the world has changed a lot since then. Not the least because of COVID and related changes to the workplace. All this must have made you think about growing, growing secular trends, issues, and opportunities in the workplace. So what's the next book on?
Deepak Mehra:
Yes, there is another book coming. That is called ‘Think like a golfer’. In many ways, it captures all the evolution of thinking that has happened in my own mind over the last seven years. I've been able to get inspiration from the game of golf. Golf is such a unique game, because it's so different from other games. Even though you're competing with others, no one else has any impact on your performance. You play with your own ball, which you carry all the way over the 18 holes, over a huge length, maybe three or four kilometers of the golf course. Everyone plays with their own ball, everyone has their own set of equipment; a wide range of equipment, a wide range of terrain, nothing is set and everything is uncertain.
It's the closest to the day-to-day life that you live. In a way, it is a metaphor for life, not just professional life, but life in general. Deriving those learnings from golf, I have written this book, and it is to develop a mindset of a golfer and win like a golfer with grace, dignity, and high standards. That's what my new book is.
In fact, it has seven different lessons that come out of golf and they start with clarity of purpose, goal, and planning; because you can't win the game of golf without planning the 18 courses in advance. Actually the winners are decided way before the game starts. That's exactly in life as well.
The courage, courage to change and adapt to different circumstances, become flexible, a detachment. In golf, you're playing with a tiny little ball over a massive terrain, where every shot that you take, you have very little control over the outcome, except, you have control over how you play the shot, your own technique. There is no copybook style of shots in golf, every place requires a different sort of shot.
Detachment- the ability to observe yourself and play the shots without stress.
Excellence- where you don't compete with anyone else, but you're competing with your own self, you have a handicap that you're trying to beat.
Execution- the big shots, the drive shots, and the parting shots which are more calibrated, so act big and act small. So, you should be good at execution of big and small things.
Other aspects are integrity and high moral standards.
Golf is a game which does not have referees running around, checking where you hit the ball from, and how are you going to hit your next shot. Actually, there is a game referee here, there are few game referees, but nobody's watching you every time. You're scoring your own self most of the times. This is a very different game, from others like football or cricket, where there are cameras and other people watching you, and then calling out if you're trying to cheat. In golf, no one calls you out. If you cheat, you cheat. No one checks it. It's a game of very high moral standards.
Golf is a game that is played…even though it's a very tough game, it’s physically demanding and played at a very slow pace. It takes four-five hours to finish a game of golf. Take it easy in life, have a balance. Those are the sorts of things that are coming out which are becoming, Binod, more important today. The aspects of managing ourselves today are more important in this highly volatile and changing environment that we're getting into. I think, that is what I've tried to bring into this book.
Binod Shankar:
At this stage, I usually ask my guests for their top three career tips. But I suspect that will be a glaring injustice in your case, as you have seen a lot of life and work, and hence, wised up more than many. I think, the three tips might be not doing justice. Well I’ll broaden the scope, and ask you, what are your top five tips on career and life, specifically for senior executives?
Deepak Mehra:
Very good question, Binod. I think, one of the key things that we need to understand as senior executives is that in the corporate world, whether you are an employee or whether you’re an entrepreneur, whether you are running your own business or you're working for a large business, the whole corporate setup, the structure is pitched against you from developing. The corporate structure survives on the status quo, on achieving commercial success, day in and day out, every day, every week, every month, every quarter. So, the corporate structure needs efficient managers who can utilize their resources very well to deliver results.
If someone evolves into a leader, it is by their own self-awareness. The corporate structure depends upon a hierarchy where people are put on different levels to manage their resources at their level, they are all managers by definition. And therefore, it is pitched against your interests of development. Now, we know that the corporate structure looks like a pyramid. As you go up, the space becomes thinner and thinner, and the air becomes rarer and rarer with height. So, just doing your job well, and performing and achievement of results will make you a great manager, which can never make you a great leader. To become a great leader, one has to be able to sustain the rarefied air at the top, and getting invited to the top is something that organizations don't develop, even though they conduct many leadership courses. You and I have been on many, but none of them teach you any of the stuff that we are talking.
Except yours Binod, I know you have recently conducted a brilliant leadership course, for a bank in the IFC, and those are the sort of courses we need as eye openers. So, I congratulate you and I congratulate the organization that held this, because these are out of ordinary sorts of developers. The run-of-the-mill development courses and leadership developments courses don't take you there.
So, for me, there are five different mindsets. And you said five points, so I'm picking up five points that people have to define for themselves, and develop their leadership skills.
The first one is to upgrade their skills. It does not mean technical skills alone. Technical skill up-gradation is an ongoing job, otherwise, you become a dinosaur, but I'm talking more about life skills, about relationship skills, about soft skills, about people skills, and communication skills.
People have to invest in the development of their skills. Just because they are at a certain stage of hierarchy in the organization, which can lead to a sense of delusion that they have achieved it all and they know it all. I think, that's where they need to step back, drop their ego, and start upgrading their skills. These are the sorts of skills that we need to work on, that are very difficult, to begin with. Good communication skills, good writing skills, a great note, a great email, write concisely, and precisely; speak in a good, elegant manner. Things like these have to be learnt. We are not born with all those skills, but these are very important for leadership. The ability to communicate with others, the ability to connect with others, the soft skills that go with leadership skills, relationships, etc. There is no end to it. So upgrade, upgrade and upgrade. That's mantra number one.
The second one is; even though it's very important to work with your head, it is equally important to work with your heart. So, creating that engagement with others, Like I said, not just one-way communication but a two-way communication, allowing people to flourish. Inviting ideas from others, engaging others in decision making, and carrying the whole team together. Understanding that each one is a unique person, managing with your heart. This is point number two.
The third point is integrity and moral compass. How do I guide myself? Are the end results and outcomes more important or are the means equally important? Having that moral compass always with you, which says that the means are as important, if not more important than the ends, because it's very easy to become successful. If you're competent, technically, you can become successful. But there is a whole lot of difference between becoming successful and staying successful. That staying successful bit comes with character.
Competence and character, when you combine the two, you sustain your success. Otherwise, competence can take you and give you flashes of success. Then, it leads to the same thing that we've spoken about; frustration, hitting the dead-end, and hitting the ceiling. Then people don't know why they've got stuck. Whereas, they probably haven't upgraded themselves, they haven't used their heart, and they are focusing on the outcome and not on the means, and therefore, they're getting stuck. The moral compass is very important.
You can't achieve any of this if you're not living a balanced life. A balanced life does not mean leaving the office on time and not working over the weekends and staying away. That's all very important. That is good, but then what do you do over your weekend? What do you do in your off time? You can't balance work with emptiness. So, if it is a scale, and I put something here on one side, which is work, which is heavy, I can’t put nothing on the other side and say my scale is balanced, it will not be balanced, I’ll have to put something.
Now that something, are those little small goals, my little achievements on my personal development side, which I do for my weekend, help me balance the scale. There is nothing that gives you more happiness than defining small goals and achieving them on a regular basis. That is what you should be doing in your free time and not mindless socializing, partying, drinking, or binge-watching television and so on. I know that socializing is very important, but to an extent.
How will you operate yourself? How will you learn? When will you read the books you need to read? When will you listen to the podcasts and YouTube videos that you want to learn to expand your thinking, your horizons, your perspective; if you are constantly busy and socializing, partying and drinking, and numbing your faculties by indulging in stuff, which really is not uplifting, it actually pulls you down. This is the balance that I'm referring to.
Finally, the fifth, and the most important one, which has been the theme of this discussion is self-awareness, becoming an observer, and not getting caught in your own thinking. Constantly thinking itself is listening to the voice in your head, which keeps pushing you either in the future; the anxiety of what's going to come in the future, or pushing you in the past saying, regrets of the past, saying, “I could have done that. Why did he say this? Why did he do that? Why did he send this email? What should I do about it”, and then worrying about the future. The mind is like a monkey that is never still, so it keeps pushing you either in the future or in the past. The voice in the head is a disease that does not allow you to stay in the present. And because you're not in the present, you're not able to be aware. Therefore, I think, developing self-awareness is the beginning and the most important part on which everything else is built on.
Just to summarize the five points- upgrade your skills, use your heart more, have a very strong moral compass, balance your life and become self-aware and observant.
Binod Shankar:
That's a very beautifully encapsulated wrap-up of this very interesting interview. By sheer coincidence, just today on LinkedIn, I posted about self-awareness and the top 12 tips to develop self-awareness based on a request from someone on LinkedIn. I posted that almost every conversation that I have with people, especially senior leaders, including my coaching clients, comes back to self-awareness.
That has been the recurring theme, and rightly so, in this podcast interview. Becoming an observer, rather than just being a mere player can transform your thinking and your career, and your life. That is a very important takeaway.
I could go on and on about the insights and the nuggets of wisdom and the quotable quotes from this podcast, which I'll probably keep on posting for the next few months, Deepak. You're definitely going to be in the limelight for some time.
Thank you so much for making time from your hectic schedule. I know you have a lot of priorities going on right now. I appreciate the time you've taken to prepare for this podcast meticulously, as is your style, and to share your thoughts. I hope people take the time out to listen, introspect and apply this as far as possible in their careers and their personal lives. And I'm sure they will see the change, not overnight but over time. Thank you once again, Deepak.
Deepak Mehra:
Thank you very much. It's such a pleasure talking to you again, as it is always.
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