Episode 5: Amit Chakrabarty
From humble beginnings in a small town to massive steel stockyards to banking IT project management to the heart of Investment Banking in London and now back home making an impact in education with CFA Institute, our next guest has gone through a LOT.
How does being an engineer change your way of thinking? What can a MBA from a top global school teach you? How do you jump from IT to IB? How IS it working in investment banking in the City? How do you survive an onslaught of layoffs? Why quit corporate life when you are doing so well? What are the issues holding back youngsters in finance, particularly women? Why should you learn to spiral bind (!!) documents?
All this and more on this episode with Amit Chakrabarty.
I pick my guests because they have a unique story to tell. And this is yet another saga. Listen. Learn. Grow.
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
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Binod:
This is Binod Shankar and you're listening to the Real Finance Mentor Podcast, from therealfinancementor.com. The Real Finance Mentor is your go-to resource for insight and inspiration on careers and finance, CFA and more. I would think, "Why this podcast?" Well, my goal is to deliver insight and inspiration for your finance career, but making it one, relatable. This is not theoretical stuff. We zero in on the critical practical issues. Number two, authentic. No bullshit, no sidestepping. The topics, guests and questions are all from that perspective. And number three, take a chartered accountant, CFA charter holder, add 17 plus years as a corporate warrior, mix in 10 years of entrepreneurship, throw in a decade of full-time CFA training, add speaking, mentoring, cycling, and mountaineering and that's me. Welcome to the Real Finance Mentor. Or as they call it, RFM.
[Tune]
Binod:
Welcome to episode number five. My interviewee today is not a CFA charter holder. In fact, he does not even work in finance. So why is he on the show you ask? Well, listen to him and find out. But before that, an introduction. Amit Chakrabarty is the director, institutional relations South and Southeast Asia with CFA Institute. I know, quite a mouthful, and he is based in Mumbai. He qualified as an engineer, majored in computer science. He then moved to a bank where he was a senior software engineer before deciding IT wasn't for him and he wanted finance, which he got into off an MBA from a top US school. He left investment banking after seven plus years and joined CFA Institute in a completely different role and sector. And has been here for the past five years. So yeah, there is a CFA connection somewhere. Amit, good to have you on the show. So let's jump straight to the point I made. Yeah, I looked at your resume. Interesting resume.
Amit:
Thank you.
Binod:
You're going to dive in more depth, steel stock yards to IT in a bank to MBA and then investment banking in a bank, and now you're working in pretty much a very different role with CFA Institute. So my first question in my mind is, was it all planned?
Amit:
Okay. So initially it was all about survival and then it was driven by a little bit of ambition. And now as of today, it's all heart. Some background maybe that will help. I come from a very humble background, which meant that school vacations were all about deciding which relative’s house to visit for a few days. There's no other place to go.
Binod:
Right.
Amit:
I also grew up in a very remote part of India. It was Assam and Arunachal Pradesh. Arunachal Pradesh is being claimed by China. So it's that remote, as you know. There's not many roads.
Binod:
It’s the northeast.
Amit:
It's a northeast part of the country. Right. And my biggest challenge growing up was a lack of guidance. Both on the personal as well as the professional front. That was the biggest obstacle. I had no clue that IIT existed. Now can you believe that.
Binod:
IT for the non-Indian is the Indian Institute of technology, which is a premier engineering Institute in India. Yeah.
Amit:
Yes. And I can blame it on the lack of internet access at that point of time. This is going way back.
Binod:
How do we exist without Google? I wonder sometimes to be honest.
Amit:
I know so that therefore the initial steps in my career was all about grabbing whatever opportunity was at hand and making the best of those opportunities. On my own though, I developed a simple modus operandi, which I follow even today.
Binod:
What is that exactly?
Amit:
So it's a four step process. Number one, I feel that all work is good. There's things to be learned from even the most basic task. I'll give a simple example from my investment banking career, I learned how to spiral bind books.
Binod:
Okay.
Amit:
Right?
Binod:
Interesting.
Amit:
So if there's an important pitch or a very important, let's say M & A mandate pitch in the morning and either I or my manager had a brilliant idea overnight. We could quickly change the pitch book and I could spiral bind the pitch book myself.
Binod:
Okay.
Amit:
Right? And that was something that was considered favorably. Now was that really my job? No, but it worked for me. So all work is good. That's number one. Number two, I really, really expected to the best in my work, in my team. I wanted to be the go to person, and that helped me build a lot of credibility within my team and within my company. And that helped me go through 14 rounds of layoffs, after the financial crisis with HSBC in London, because I was the best in my team.
Binod:
You survived.
Amit:
I survived.
Binod:
You were the last man standing, Amit.
Amit:
Not exactly last man, but yeah, one of the last men standing.
Binod:
One of the last men standing.
Amit:
So, and the biggest thing that really helped me and this being the best in my work was something as simple as attention to detail, right? Not making silly mistakes, doing my work properly, and my manager would look at my work and trust it blindly without having to second guess himself or herself. So that is number two. Number three, ask. I always feel in Hindi there's a proverb, it says “puchne mein kya jaata hain”, which means what's the harm in asking? And I follow that dictate in my life, right? I always ask, I don't want to ever have a situation where I think back and said, "If only I asked." What could have been no regrets. Right? So that's number three and that's something that I encourage all young people to do.
Binod:
Right.
Amit:
Number four, first deliver and then look for that promotion. Then look for the job, like job growth or that salary increase, right? If I'm good, my company would look after me, would look to do anything to retain me. If I'm not good, no matter how much I ask and demand, I'm not going to get it, right?
Binod:
Right.
Amit:
So these are like, all work is good. The best at work, always, always ask and first deliver and then look for growth.
Binod:
But honestly I'm still wanting to know how did you go from steel stockyard to...
Amit:
I'm sorry.
Binod:
Come back to track here, right? Tell me.
Amit:
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. So getting back to my career moves, steel stock yard to banking IT, very simple reason. A humble background. I had to buy a home for my mother and no matter how much I like my job at Steel Authority of India Limited, being a public sector company, I was not getting enough money to save and buy a house. So that was my sole focus to move from, steel stock yard, to a banking IT. And I did succeed in buying a house within one year of making the move so that helped.
Binod:
Okay. So in banking IT were you a coder, programmer? Project manager? What were you?
Amit:
I started my life in banking IT as a software developer and moved on into more of a business analyst role. So I was based in Singapore with Deutsche Bank for five years. I used to travel around across Asia Pacific, talk to different product managers, gather requirements of corporate investment in products, come back to Singapore and get it developed out of Singapore and Bangalore and then go and deploy it. So that was my job. Right? And that leads on to the next move.
Binod:
Yes.
Amit:
Which is, how do I, then, decide to go to an MBA from a banking IT thing?
Binod:
Great.
Amit:
So what happened is that I did pretty well in my job, right. So I had a lot of friends within Deutsche Bank and I ended up getting offered a front line banking role within the corporate investment bank, which was kind of my client at that point of time. Right? But then some politics.
Binod:
Yeah, happens.
Amit:
It happens everywhere. It didn't allow me to make the move from IT to banking. I was really pissed. I was really pissed, because I did...
Binod:
So near and you are so far.
Amit:
So near and so far and said I have to now become a front line banker. And I thought the MBA would help me move towards the direction and that's why I decided to go for an MBA.
Binod:
Right.
Amit:
So the next move is like, from an MBA, to an investment banking carrier. So I was lucky. I made it to a good school, Darden business school, University of Virginia. It's a top 10 ranked school in the US. So I was halfway there, just because of getting admission into a premier school. Right? So I did have multiple offers within investment banks in New York. I decided to join HSBC in New York and I started my life as a banker originating M & A and capital market deals in New York.
Binod:
The wolf of Wall Street.
Amit:
The wolf of Wall Street. I didn't want to be a wolf, so I moved to London and then Mumbai.
Binod:
Right. Okay. Now you're an engineer and you're a computer engineer. If I'm not mistaken, right?
Amit:
Yes, yes.
Binod:
And I need to ask you this because lots of engineers try to get into finance either by doing an MBA or by doing, getting the CFA. So overall in your career, how did your engineering background help you or shall I say hinder you?
Amit:
Okay, good question. I actually did very little studying in engineering college, but then one cannot go through four years of your life without really learning...
Binod:
And not learning anything, right?
Amit:
And not learning anything. So I did learn some stuff. I look at the biggest take away from my engineering days as a developing very logical and structured way of thinking. Right? I, and I think that's something that I've applied not just to my professional life, but to my personal life as well. Right? So what does it mean? Like the breakdown, the most complex of assignments, projects, things into small discrete steps, making flowcharts like mentally or on paper of the various steps, how they flow, and then build a structure with alternatives as well.
Amit:
So I'll always do that and all of us, like we all have great ideas or supposedly great ideas. Me, my colleagues, my leaders, everyone, right? But then this very logical, structured way of thinking takes an idea to an executable idea. And that's how my engineering background really helped me out. How did engineering hinder me? Okay. I mean, what I can think about is going back to my business school applications right? Now I was an Indian, I was a male, I was an engineer and I was working in IT.
Binod:
Does it get more stereotypical than that?
Amit:
It doesn't. So I got lucky. I got lucky to have got into Darden in spite of this, like a very common profile.
Binod:
Right. So I think you did sort of mention why the MBA, at a high level, right? But specifically, I mean, what do you learn at Darden when doing the MBA and how did it help looking back?
Amit:
Okay. Darden was an amazing experience. I've never been to the US before I had gone and joined Darden. Right? So I learned stuff at school, but more importantly from my classmates at Darden, right? So I'll break it down into four points.
Binod:
Sure.
Amit:
Number one is discipline. Now my American classmates, before I went to the US, I thought like I'm Asian, I'm Indian and I'm hardworking. I'll ace the Darden class, I'll do extremely well, right? I get there, I see my Darden classmates. They exercise in the morning. They participated in all the classes, they prepared for next day’s classes by doing cases, they network with their peers and with companies which visited the campus, and they still had time to spend with their significant others.
Binod:
Is within 24 hours?
Amit:
It's all within 24 hours.
Binod:
Wow. Okay.
Amit:
I used to be exhausted and like I didn't have no energy left in spite of skipping some of these activities. Because I didn't do, I never exercise for example. Right?
Binod:
Right, right.
Amit:
So I learned discipline from my classmates. How do you have a more disciplined life? How do prioritize things right now and make all of these things happen? So that's number one. Number two, very interestingly, you think people in my like, you know, growing up, you think about America, sex and drugs is what comes up all the time. But what I learned from my American friends is to follow your heart. Okay? So here are these guys who are openly talking about failures in their life, right? So in India, if you fail at something after a period of time that failure almost disappears from your profile. We don't talk about it, because society judges us.
Binod:
Shameful.
Amit:
Shameful. But here, this guys who are talking about following their heart, trying out different things, failing in different things. But they said that we have learned something from this experience so that we not fall. We're not going to repeat our mistakes, right? Money was important, but money was not the most important. That following your heart and happiness was important. So that's number two. Number three, conflicting priorities. Okay.
Binod:
Ability to manage.
Amit:
Ability to manage conflicting priorities, right? So I remember very clear I wanted to become an investment banker when I went to business school and one of the ways we showed our commitment to Wall Street was to travel to New York. And New York was about six hours drive from Charlottesville where Darden is located. So we went to our professors, fully confident that our professors will allow me, allow us to go to New York and network. And the professors say nothing doing, you need to attend all our classes, otherwise I'm going to fail you in my class participation grade.
Amit:
Okay now I have to attend classes, I have to contribute in classes which means I had to prepare. Plus I have to network as well, and not just me, all of my classmates. So we manage that. Right? And this prepares you to be as close to real life as possible because that's what happened in our real life. How to manage conflicting priorities. Right?
Binod:
Correct.
Amit:
So that's number three. Number four, Darden, extremely good. Like professors, very, very strong academic rigor. Right? So I had probably the most like strongest technical knowledge of most MBA graduates that I know of. So when I joined my associate class at HSBC, investment banking, I had classmates from Wharton, Stanford, Kellogg, Chicago, London Business School, INSEAD, you name it, right. All of them are there, right? And what I realized that I was probably one of the most well prepared guys, because of the Darden experience I could develop a financial model in my sleep. Right? And that is important as you start out, as you build credibility and trust within your team.
Binod:
Right.
Amit:
So that those are like four of the things that I thought I picked up from my Darden experience or my MBA experience.
Binod:
Right. So here you are, you've gone from steel stock yard to banking IT, to one of the top MBA schools in the world, working as an investment banker in one of the top banks in the world, in the place to work in the world, which is Wall Street. And then I was looking at your resume and you know, I'm looking at a LinkedIn profile and then I see the switch from this to, and I couldn't almost believe it, right? From investment banking to essentially education, which is what you're doing right now full time in CFA Institute.
Amit:
Right.
Binod:
Now, describe this Eureka moment for me.
Amit:
Okay. So I'll break it down in two parts like now, one is my decision to leave investment banking and then how did they end up at CFA Institute, right? So first the decision to leave investment banking, there was no Eureka moment per se, right? It was more of a series of incidents and circumstances, which led me to this decision to quit investment banking and do something else. So number one, internal conflict. Okay. Now, investment banking did give me a lot. Okay, a lot of confidence, a great network, financial security, which we all want, right? But as I progressed from being an associate to a VP, to a director, I realized that we're not always focused on creating value for our clients. Right? A lot of times the focus was on generating fees for ourselves and not necessarily looking out for the best for the client.
Amit:
Okay. Now that kind of bothered me quite a bit and that internal conflict only grew as I progressed from my investment banking career and I thought, this is not something I'm very comfortable with, this internal conflict that I have. Second was more personal, like investment banking is intense. Like you know anybody who knows investment bank knows that, right? So even when you progress from a junior banker to a senior banker, all it changes is the amount of time you physically spend in the office. It still remains that 24 hour, 24/7 365 days a year job, right? Now, my daughter, at that point was two years old and I really wanted to be part of her growing up, part of her childhood and be part of a family rather than be seen as an… absentee father.
Amit:
And so these are kind of two reasons I had the internal conflict, part of it I guess was 70% of the reason. And then that's now my desire to spend time with my family, which is where I thought I'll do something else. Now, why CFA Institute?
Binod:
Right.
Amit:
So once I decided to move out of investment banking, the question is, "What next?" And I was very confused because that's what I had done for a while now and I really didn't know what to do. So all I knew was that I wanted to do something where I, what my heart tells me and what I do are aligned. It's not conflicting. Okay. And if an opportunity allowed me to do something that would improve an industry that I've spent a good chunk of my career why not?
Binod:
True.
Amit:
Why not? Right? So the role of role at CFA Institute is exactly that. I engage with the investment industry. I focus on three aspects, performance, risk, and talent. How to make the industry bigger and better while always focusing on the ultimate benefit to society. And that's exactly what I'm doing. And that's why I joined CFA Institute.
Binod:
Right. So you're going to go back to what you're doing exactly at CFA Institute. Especially I want to talk about the skill gaps and the young women in investment program, which you are spearheading in the region. But before we go there, you have done the MBA program and you are well versed with the CFA program, although you are not a CFA charter holder yourself.
Amit:
That's right.
Binod:
But I'm not holding it against you.
Amit:
Thank you for that.
Binod:
But this is the question I always get from people who are planning to do CFA or MBA. What is the difference between a CFA program and an MBA in finance and what are the pros and cons? What are the three things that you see are the critical differences between these two very, very popular, and very prestigious programs?
Amit:
Okay. So I'm an MBA like you rightly pointed out, and I'm not a charter holder, although I do work at CFA Institute so I'll try to be as honest as I can without being biased towards anything. Right? So first of all, I don't think these two programs are comparable.
Binod:
True, true.
Amit:
MBA is more like not generic management program where you do not just finance. Even if there's like this whole MBA finance thing is kind of a nuance. Normally in MBA, you study marketing, you study operations, you study HR, organizing behavior, everything. Right? While the CFA program is very, very focused, it is for typically for people who are very sure that they want to work in some of the core investment management roles like it's like in money management, research, like being a credit analyst, performance analyst, equity analyst kind of thing. Right, so it's very, very focused, while MBA's much more generic. Okay, so it's not comparable per se, but having said that since you asked me that question, I just wanted to highlight three things that I think are there in the CFA program, which an MBA would not get.
Binod:
Right.
Amit:
Right. CFA...
Binod:
Then later we’ll talk about what's in the MBA program, which is not in the CFA program?
Amit:
That's right.
Binod:
Okay, let's go with CFA first.
Amit:
Let's go with CFA. So CFA program, like I said, is number one in depth of knowledge. Okay. The CFA curriculum is probably the most in depth and specialized curriculum for the investment management industry.
Binod:
True.
Amit:
While the MBA would provide a flavor, the CFA would go really deep dive and give you that hardcore technical knowledge which no MBA would have otherwise. That's number one. Number two, very, very important. The CFA is a standardized and it's a global credential. Now as the world becomes more interconnected, the physical location of an office, or for that matter, an employee becomes almost immaterial. Okay. So just imagine a CFA charter holder based in New York is working on a day to day basis with the CFA charter holder in Mumbai, right? Now, since they both have traversed the same journey and same learning, this respect...
Binod:
This mutual respect.
Amit:
This mutual respect and you start instantly respecting each other, you don't have to discover each other like you do with other programs. Okay. I think that's a very important aspect of the CFA program and a CFA charter holder, right? Number three is the network.
Binod:
Actually before that bit, but for MBA that is not the case. Right? You have MBAs from Wharton and you know, MBA’s from Darden and then you have MBA from the University of Southwest Mumbai.
Amit:
Yes.
Binod:
I don't think there is a University of Southwest Mumbai.
Amit:
There could be.
Binod:
There could be, exactly.
Amit:
Yeah. So you're right. And also barring a few really, really marquee MBA programs, you don't have that kind of respect that you have for the CFA program globally.
Binod:
..which is what you said earlier as well, saying if you're doing an MBA program, do it from one of the top business schools.
Amit:
Premier business school.
Binod:
Premier business school, exactly. Right, sorry, number three you were saying.
Amit:
So yeah, so the first was in depth knowledge, the number two was the standardized and global credential, and number three is a network. Okay. Now the CFA Institute and the CFA charter holder network is unparalleled. If you asked me, okay, at 170000 charter holder members across I think 80 odd countries across the world. Right? You name a country and more likely than not, there'll be a local CFA society there, which is meeting regularly, doing activities together, has professional learning, and all of these things. Like where else do you get that? Okay. To give you some context, I mean Harvard Business School, I mean arguably the most well recognized, well regarded MBA program in the world. They have a living alumni base of 47000.
Binod:
I like the way you said living.
Amit:
Actually, if you look at even the people who are not living like the complete class, it's still about 67- 68000 MBAs from Harvard. Right?
Binod:
Right.
Amit:
Versus 170000 living charter holding members. So I have, those are the three areas where CFA stands out from an MBA? So MBA like, so where does MBA have an edge, right? So number one, I think is an MBA program makes a person an all rounder, all around development. That aspect, you're living in a community of 300 to 1,000 students for a period of one or two years depending on the length of your MBA program. You are engaging in daily discussions with each other within a class. You're networking with the industry on a day to day basis. It just prepares you for a more realistic work environment. Right?
Binod:
Right, right.
Amit:
Unlike the CFA program, which is a distance learning.
Binod:
And very technical, right? Very technical.
Amit:
Very technical. You're probably sitting in your home or office, you're studying, you're not really interacting. Right, so you're not, yeah, so that's a big difference.
Binod:
In fact, that's one of the biggest drawbacks of CFA or any certification program. I mean because since you're not interacting regularly with professors or other students, you don't develop your soft skills or your network.
Amit:
Yes. Yes. And as I'm going to come to that, like now that I personally, and we were talking about it before this conversation. Finance can be learned in six months, a nine month period, but soft skills, it takes much longer to learn, right? And finance, you can sit in a room and learn.
Binod:
Soft skills requires practice.
Amit:
It requires practice, it requires interactions. You've got that in an MBA school, not in the CFA program.
Binod:
True. True.
Amit:
The number two was application of learning. Okay. Again, I think MBA is like in our schools focus a lot on not just a theory, not just the knowledge, but how do you apply that knowledge? Something as simple as financial modeling. Like CFA program doesn't teach that. An MBA program focuses only on that. Right? So that's a huge difference if you ask me. And CFA Institute is going down that path and hopefully we'll achieve that shortly as well.
Amit:
Number three is the various tiers of MBA schools. So, depending on which tier of MBA school you go to, it can make the world of difference. I in fact tell all young people that if you have to go for an MBA get into a top 10 school or don't bother. Okay. Because if you get in a top 10 school, the very fact that you made it into a top 10 school, it'll define your career.
Binod:
True.
Amit:
Just like it happened for me, like when I went to Darden, like I said, I was halfway there to achieving my goal of being an investment banker. That might not happen in you know a second year, third tier school. It doesn't happen for a CFA charter holder or CFA program just by going through the program.
Binod:
True.
Amit:
So these are the differences.
Binod:
So it basically opens the door for a career in the industry because of doing an MBA. So now let's come to the point that you touched upon briefly earlier, right? In terms of you were saying why you switched from industry to academia in a word or CFA Institute and I think one main reason was how you wanted to make a difference and now you are making a difference or you're trying to make a difference by being involved in, like I said, these three areas of performance, risk and talent. But I know also know that you pretty much spearhead the young women investment program in India?
Amit:
Yes.
Binod:
And its probably the only one of it's kind so far around the world.
Amit:
That's right, yeah.
Binod:
Now of course you interact with them, this is a program which actually just to for the listeners to understand is a four week boot camp followed by a paid internship for three to six months in some top institutions, financial institutions like BlackRock and AON and Duff & Phelps, right. So it's quite interesting and it's targeting young women in India. So you have obviously been spearheading the program, but I want to ask you is what are the top three gaps? Could be skills gaps or attitude gaps or employability gap for lack of a better word that you see in young women and how can they close the gap, because you're interacting with them and you've mentored a lot of them as well. You know a lot of mentees you have so?
Amit:
Okay, so I think number one is lack of guidance, right? And you'll be surprised, and I, when I interacted with women, even in Mumbai, Delhi, which are the Metro cities in India. And even there, a lot of women have no clarity, no guidance on what to do next beyond their education, right? So simply an area like simply figuring out avenues and ways to give guidance to people is extremely important. Not just for young women, but even young men as well. Like for both men and women, guidance is something very critical and important in India. Right? The second thing is something that I come across very often is this. So the balance between self confidence and self awareness, right? You know, what do I really know? What am I skilled at and therefore what can I really expect?
Amit:
So what I see is a mismatch. Like people think too much about themselves, they feel that they deserve something but they don't really necessarily have or display the attributes for having that kind of a job. Right? So this mismatch between self confidence and self awareness is missing. And I think that needs, that gap needs to be bridged as soon as possible. And again, that might come through guidance as well.
Binod:
Right.
Amit:
So that's number two. Number three, and this is very, very pertinent for the young women in this case.
Binod:
Actually, you mentioned before this conversation that the first two points are probably equally applicable to male, men as well?
Amit:
That's right. Right. And the third point which I'm going to talk about is especially pertinent for a woman in this country, right? And that's like societal and family trust in their abilities. So for me, that's the biggest challenge for a woman in this country. How do I make my parents trust me that I'll be safe, I can live in a new city, I can take care of myself. Nobody is going to take advantage of me. Right? I know I would be able to you know handle myself and not “spoil the family name” as you say. Right now I'm a guy and I remember when I was young and I was looking for opportunities, I would just tell my mom that, "Hey, I'm going away for 10 days." And my mom would be okay with it, right?
Amit:
Not so for my sister. For my sister it was like, "Where are you going to live? Whom are you going to live with? What's the area like? Are there men around you?" All of these things come about, right? And I was on a trek and we were talking about it before, like this conversation. And I told you that I met this amazing set of women on this trek, the Himalayan trek, who were so confident who could deal and handle any situation, right. And that's true more and more for a woman right. Now, the family’s trust and the society's trust, if it comes in, the sky's the limit for these women.
Binod:
Of course, of course. Fantastic. Yeah. And how do you think they could, any suggestions or any practices you have seen from your side how to close these three gaps of lack of guidance, this lack of balance between self confidence and self awareness and this societal slash family trust issues?
Amit:
I think it's like an all institutions like CFA Institute can play a big role in it. Like the young women in investment program is a start. I think the more engagement we have between all senior leaders, mentors, like talking, not just to this woman, but also to her parents, like engaging with their parents and all that would help bridge the gap in real time. I'll give you a different example.
Amit:
So one of my friends who runs a wealth management, what he does is that he conducts these workshops for wives, housewives. Right? Because they, he rightly feels that the wives are at home, they are the people who are actually managing that, they do the budgets. If they can be convinced that investing in mutual funds for example, is a good thing, they can also convince their parents. Okay, so likewise in this case it's not just engagement with the woman but it's engaging with the overall society, particularly the parents. If we do more and more of that engagement. And we cannot physically do that all the time. So where this is where digital comes into the picture, like now be able to develop proper digital content that can then, which can be like an utilized to engage with this audience of society, parents, girls as well. That should help.
Binod:
Okay. I think it's a slow process. It's not an overnight journey obviously. It's going to take time. At least we are taking the first steps, that is important. Now since you mentioned when we talked about the young women investment program, how would you, and I know this is a recent program, you started only probably …..…..
Amit:
Two years back.
Binod:
2018?
Amit:
That's right.
Binod:
How would you measure the success of the program so far?
Amit:
Okay, so five metrics, I would look at it, right? So number one is the investment industry institutions, building the young women investment program into their talent acquisition architecture. Like so it's almost like they will hire from this program year on year without question because it is successful. It's helping them not just build diversity in your teams, but it's helping drive business. Okay. And that's what diversity is all about, driving business, right?
Binod:
True.
Amit:
So some companies like BlackRock, State Street are already doing that. It's part of their hiring architecture now. So that's number one. Number two, a high proportion of the participants of the women participants of the program deciding to continue their career in investment industry. Right? So it's not just about getting this woman into the program for the boot camp and internship, but the only way we can make a difference to diversity is if this woman continue on the journey and become like middle managers, senior managers over a period of time, right? So, that would be a second metric.
Amit:
The third metric would be not only that it would continue to be part of the industry, but when it comes to performance, hopefully our YWI participants, the young women in investment participants, are in the top quartile of performance within the company. So, that would say that that does demonstrate that this program is success. We are coming out with incredibly good talent. Okay so, that's the third metric. Number four would be a significant ramp up in the number of young women who are applying for this program or who are aspiring to be part of this program.
Binod:
Do you see an increase in the number of, I think you have two batches every year is it?
Amit:
It's been two batches so far.
Binod:
Two batches.
Amit:
So the first batch was 50 women and the second batch was like 150 or sorry, a hundred women.
Binod:
So now what do you think is in the third batch now?
Amit:
Third batch is going to be a hundred. This year the focus is going to be higher quality applicants coming in, and higher quality internships as well. So that's why we're looking at, so we'll scale it up from 50 to a hundred let's stick to a hundred but…
Binod:
Focus on quality.
Amit:
We'll keep the quality of both the participants as the internships. So significant ramp ups the fourth point. And number five would be to scale up this program and run it not just in India. Why not, right? Run it in other parts of the world as well. In fact, we are going to run it in Brazil in 2020 alongside India and we're talking to a couple of Middle Eastern countries as well who might be interested.
Binod:
Interesting. Okay, so much about your career, so much about what you're doing at CFA Institute now you've talked about learning and you know a lot of critical modus operandi for success? So what self development projects are you currently working on?
Amit:
Okay. That's a very interesting question.
Binod:
It's a personal question, right?
Amit:
So I'm a very self aware person. Okay. So doesn't mean that I always practice what I preach, but at least I'm aware of what my deficiencies are. So one of the outcomes of the young women in investment program is that I actually do realize that I can make a difference to people's lives. I mean it could be a very small, tiny difference, but I can make a difference to people's lives
Binod:
Right.
Amit:
And because of this program, I would like to get more into teaching like now starting maybe with guest lectures and various colleges in the country.And one area of development that I've identified for myself to become a better mentor, a teacher is just being more empathetic to people. Like empathy, that's it for me. And that's what I've been working on for the last six to nine months. People tell me that I have, it has made a difference to my personality.
Binod:
You are softer, more cuddlier kind of person.
Amit:
I'm a better human being is what people say now.
Binod:
I think it's an evolution. I think something that I've also been working on for the past many years. Exactly this and interacting with people, getting the feedback and trying to be more human, be more empathetic, more tolerant.
Amit:
More nicer.
Binod:
Less judgmental, things like that. So I think, yeah. So interesting. So at this point I need to ask you, because we have talked about a lot of things, right, and this leads to lessons for life and career. What would be your three top lessons for life and career specifically fora youngster who is listening to this podcast and wants to benefit from your experience.
Amit:
Okay. I'll repeat a couple of things I've said in the beginning, like again, it's a very, very simple things, but sometimes the simplest things are difficult to do. So number one, ask, always, always ask, right? Never be afraid to ask. What's the worst that can happen? The person can say, "No." Right?
Binod:
True.
Amit:
But what's the alternative? Somebody could say, "Yes." And that could be a big step in achieving your dream or your goal as well. So always, always, always ask. Very critical.
Binod:
Right.
Amit:
A second aspect would be just to be very curious. Never give up, never restrict yourself to a particular role, to a particular job, to a particular business. Go beyond so for example, if you are working in the business, there's an X, figure out the upstream and downstream kind of impact of your job profile. So once you do that, you will be so much better educated. It will also allow you to figure out what your next move is, what all you can achieve, what are your, what are the things that you might be lacking, and thereby, acquire some of the skills and attributes. So be curious, right?
Amit:
Third thing, make your own decisions, right? It's be open to advice from everyone, okay? So reach out, never, never ignore advice. Okay? Take it. Take every advice from everyone and anyone that's out there, but make your own decisions.
Binod:
The final decision is yours.
Amit:
The final decision has to be yours. Like sometimes it will work out and sometimes it will not work out and that happens to all of us, right? But it's my decision and I would enjoy the success of it. And if it is failure, I learn from it and make sure I don't make it again.
Binod:
Exactly.
Amit:
But make your decisions. So, always ask, be curious, and always make your own decisions.
Binod:
Fantastic. Very structured as I would expect from an engineer. This has been a fantastic, very insightful, very interesting interview, Amit. Thank you so much once again for, I know you have a busy schedule for spending time. I hope that the listeners to this podcast would find a lot of insights and information in this interview and apply it as well and see how a person who started off as an engineer working in a steel stock yard, It's very interesting, so far away from what you did and what you're doing now, can make it a success in life. Thank you so much once again, Amit.
Amit:
Thank you, Binod. Pleasure talking to you.
Binod:
This podcast is brought to you by The Real Finance Mentor. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you found it insightful and inspirational. If you did enjoy this episode, please drop us a review and spread the word and be sure check out more exclusive content on therealfinancementor.com and my LinkedIn profile, which is Binod Shankar CFA. Let's keep in touch. Just add your name to the mailing list on therealfinancementor.com and we'll tell you about new episodes plus book reviews, upcoming events, and blogs. Till the next time- onwards and upwards.