Episode 2: Mira Raley
Ready for Episode #2 of The Real Finance Mentor podcast? Let’s do things a bit different this time. No, this episode isn’t directly about finance or CFA, BUT you better listen if you’re in finance! In this episode, WE have Mira Raley.
Mira was an indifferent student who somehow wandered into hospitality. She’s now an expert in the psychology of work and is a respected behavioral facilitator and coach to a wide range of executives from junior to middle to senior management to senior across multiple nationalities.
In this episode, she talks with clarity and conviction on some critical topics such as how to find your passion, mentoring, the folly of badge collection, the importance of resilience and a growth mindset, the soft skills that really count and more.
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Binod: This is Binod Shankar and you're listening to The Real Finance Mentor podcast from therealfinancementor.com. The Real Finance Mentor is your go to resource for insight and inspiration on carriers in finance, CFA and more. Now you might think, why this podcast? Well, my goal is to deliver insight and inspiration for your financial career by making it, one, relatable. I mean, this is not theoretical stuff. We zero in on the critical practical issues. Number two, authentic. No bullshit. No sidestepping. The topics, guests and questions are all from that perspective. And number three, insightful. Take a chartered accountant and a CFA charter holder at 17+ years as a corporate warrior, mixing 10+ years of entrepreneurship, throw in a decade of full time CFA training, and speaking, mentoring, cycling, mountaineering and other endurance activities, and that's me. Welcome to The Real Finance Mentor or as I call it, RFM.
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Binod: Welcome to the second episode of The Real Finance Mentor podcast. Today, I have with me a special guest. Someone who's not a CFA charter holder or candidate or anyone in finance or even academic. You might wonder, why? Well, I'll tell you why. Because Mira Raley, my guest, is a leadership consultant with 15 years of experience in training, assessing and coaching young professionals. A lot of expertise in motivation, resilience, employability, and of course, very importantly, career success. Welcome to The Real Finance Mentor podcast Mira.
Mira Raley: Thank you for having me, Binod.
Binod: Very interesting person on board. Now tell me a little bit about yourself.
Mira Raley: Sure. So you've already mentioned the fact that I've now been working in the region for about 12 years in training and specifically on soft skills and behavioral training. I would probably say I didn't start off that way at all. So actually if I go right back to my university days now about almost 15, 20 years ago, I didn't really have a direction. I started off with a passion for biology and science.
Binod: Wow. Okay.
Mira Raley: And I applied for my university degree in that major. Now the difference is, I went to the US for my degree. And when you apply in the US, the beauty is you can change your major as many times as you choose. Right?
Binod: Yeah. Right.
Mira Raley: So I started off in biology. Didn't really fall in love with it. And I think a big part of that was because of the professors that I was dealing with at the times.
Binod: It's always the case, isn't it?
Mira Raley: It's always the case. It really is. It's impressive. So I then started to move around. So I couldn't really figure out what I wanted to do. Took a couple of career tests. And then I decided, you know what, I'm just going to follow my passion. And at the time, my passion, which still is very much the case, was travel. So my intentions were purely looking at opportunities in my degree where I actually have the opportunity of traveling.
Binod: Okay.
Mira Raley: And that's where I end up in hotel management.
Binod: Right. I was about to ask you. The next question was, why hospitality management? And then you moved from hospitality management to...
Mira Raley: Leadership development.
Binod: Leadership development. So explain that journey to me, and the struggles and challenges you face along the way.
Mira Raley: Sure. Yeah. I mean, it was very coincidental. I mean, I did obviously finish my degree in hotel management, got my first job working for the Marriott hotels. And I was in the customer service industry, doing all the things that you were expected to do. I enjoyed it. It was all right. But I never fell in love with it, and didn't expect it to be... I thought I'd have a bit more passion for doing the job. And then one day, the HR and training department came to me and said, "Look, we have somebody who is leaving and we just need somebody to help us out for two weeks. Would you be willing to offer your support in training, very simple customer service classes."
Mira Raley: And so they gave me the trainer session. I did it and I absolutely fell in love with it. And they had delays in trying to get recruitment through and eventually realized, actually I was very capable and a natural as they said at the time.
Binod: So this is interesting. I got to interject here.
Mira Raley: Yeah.
Binod: Because a lot of people, the number one fear is the fear of public speaking. Right?
Mira Raley: Yeah.
Binod: So I got to stop you and ask you, where did you get the confidence and the courage and the conviction to stand up and talk to public?
Mira Raley: Got it. It's a very good question. I would definitely say this is something I was brought up to be doing. I have a very strong matriarchal family. My mother, and I have quite a few aunties who are, I would say, impressive women. And they've either been involved in politics, business at senior levels and so on. And it was instilled in me from a very young age. And so I was involved with things like debate class at school. I was the president of my student council. And I was captain of my basketball team at the time. I was playing sports as well. So I had built on that confidence.
Binod: That helps.
Mira Raley: Early stages.
Binod: In the early stages.
Mira Raley: Yeah. I mean, it didn't mean I wasn't afraid. I was completely terrified when they asked me the first time. But with preparation and dedication and a bit of hard work, they saw that I was capable of doing it, and I loved it. And I think the love alone is enough for you to really pursue something and do it better than you would usually.
Binod: Yeah. If you have a passion for it, it sort of powers you through, isn't it?
Mira Raley: Absolutely.
Binod: But then what... I mean, you have switched areas in terms of education, qualifications. Now you're doing leadership training. You've worked with many groups, nationalities, countries, ages.
Mira Raley: Yeah.
Binod: What are the challenges you have seen and what's the experience?
Mira Raley: Experience.
Binod: Yeah. What's the experience?
Mira Raley: The big thing for me was, when I moved from the hospitality industry into the training industry, I mean, it seemed very easy when you're doing internally through an organization. But then I made the decision that I needed to go back and get more of a qualification, thinking that was going to help in my training capacity. So I went back and got myself a master's degree. And now, I look back and reflect on that, and I don't necessarily think it was the best decision, because I probably learnt a lot more from the experience I was getting at work than I did from just getting that second degree.
Mira Raley: Having said that, I mean what it did was push me out of my comfort zone, because then I started freelancing and learning the... I knew that I was happy or comfortable in the customer service realm. So I was training in that regards. And the biggest challenge I had very early on is, confidence was one, but also being confident in my ability to do the job in a way that is relevant to the people that are standing in front of me. So it was much more about, am I too young to be training. People are going to look for gray hair factor.
Mira Raley: That over time changed just because, again, practice, practice, practice, practice. And then I got an opportunity working for an organization based in the UK, who needed a bilingual trainer for this region, for the Middle East and Africa region. And that was probably my biggest success in regards to my career growth, and was also the hardest time, because I was left on my own. Even though the organization was set in the UK, they really felt like this is your space. You have to go out and do the business development, you have to go out and find the material for the training, you have to just put it all together.
Binod: So it's almost like sink or swim kind of situation. Right?
Mira Raley: 100%. And my boss, I remember these conversations with him. He'd expect me to just go into a meeting within two weeks of joining and be able to just get on my feet and do what I was supposed to do. And at first, I would go in thinking, "No. There's no way I could do this." And he put a lot of trust in me. And also mentored me through the process to the point where I did feel very comfortable. And now, years later, I am very thankful for that time because it made me swim.
Binod: Yeah, exactly. That times make you tougher, or learn a lot.
Mira Raley: Yeah.
Binod: Which brings me to a very important point Mira. Because one of the issues that we face globally is employability.
Mira Raley: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Binod: Work readiness. And you are, I'm aware, very intimately familiar with the issues and solutions relating to youth employability.
Mira Raley: Very much. Yes.
Binod: So what people do is, they graduate from college or high school, but they come out to the workplace and they find that employers demand a very different set of skills compared to what they've studied.
Mira Raley: Yes.
Binod: Which is basically academic stuff.
Mira Raley: Yes.
Binod: Valuable, but not exactly useful or meaningful in the work context. So what are the issues you see here in terms of employability?
Mira Raley: I think the biggest problem that I find, especially when we're talking potentially about the millennial generation or people who are just recently leaving the university realm is that, as you pointed out very well was the fact that there's a bit of this batch collection. People look for qualification as the number one approach to being able to break through the market, which is absolutely right, and it does help. However, it is definitely not the only thing. It might get you through the door, but it's not going to keep you there. Okay?
Mira Raley: So what I look at is how can you have a bit more of a wholesome approach to your ability to get a job and a job that will help you maintain a career, instead of just a couple of years working here and that's it. Most of the time, if you're just focusing on your technical skill, you don't necessarily look at the ability to do your behavioral development, which is looking at things like collaboration or problem solving or critical thinking, even simple things like time management.
Mira Raley: And the world of work is changing. Even simply from the interview time. People are now looking at it much more from that space. People are hiring for attitude and value versus skill. You can teach the skill.
Binod: Yeah. Exactly. So, just to go back as a reference, the CFA Institute globally brought a publication about the future investment professional. And they're stressed on the fact that soft skills are highly priced because of the way work is changing. And specifically, they talked about collaboration, personal effectiveness, humility, communication skills.
Mira Raley: 100%.
Binod: Which are all areas and which I think youngsters need to work a lot on.
Mira Raley: And give a bit more emphasis on. I mean, a lot of people just don't think of it as an issue or an area that they need to focus on. Especially if you are focused so much on the qualification, you'll take so much of your time in the books, reading and doing your homework and doing what you need to be doing, which is not a bad thing. But then you forget about, what we call, street-smarts.
Binod: So what happens a lot is, so we pass charter accountancy, first attempt, for example.
Mira Raley: Yeah.
Binod: Or CFA, first attempt. And these are very tough exams.
Mira Raley: Yeah.
Binod: I think people come out with the feeling that, "You know what, I've climbed the mountains, I've summited. That's it. That's enough." I know I had the feeling when I was young, when I did my chartered accountancy. I thought that was it. There's nothing more to learn. Now I realize how naive I was with the illusion. Yeah. So in terms of the employability and work readiness and another things, what do think are the top five skills anyone entering the workforce should master? And why do you think they are so important?
Mira Raley: Well, I mean, you already said a few of them, which are very, very important things. Like collaboration, problem solving, communication, so on. I think some of the areas that probably more so than ever now, especially with the way that the world is changing, is the skills that you need to really adapt to are resilience and adaptability. So like you say, you might feel like you're on top of the world when you graduate from that first level of CFA, the reality is things will still continue change.
Binod: Well, there are two more levels left.
Mira Raley: Oh, there is two more level left. And then also, it might not get you through the door. Now, there's so many more people getting qualifications and master's degrees and I don't know what that you're not necessarily at the top of the group when you are going in to deal with these interviews. And what they'll be looking at is other things. And you know, even the way the interviews are being set now is competency-based interviews are all about, tell me about a time when you were able to solve this problem. Tell me about a time how you adapted to change. And what they're looking for is your behavioral skill around change management and adaptability and resilience.
Binod: Very important point. Yeah. A lot of youngsters ask me, "Okay, you know Binod, I've passed my CA or my CFA, but I'm youngster. I have not got any experience. I'm a fresher. So interviewers asked me about adaptability and communication and collaboration and teamwork, but I haven't had a chance to work and gain this valuable skills. So it's like a chicken egg situation. If I want to get a job, I have to have the skills. But to get the skills, I have to have a job." So how does one break this? I'm sure there's a secret sauce to this, right?
Mira Raley: Well, from my own personal experience, I can tell you. For me, it was, as much as you possibly can relate back to the life that you have now. A lot of just focus, "Oh, I need to be in a job or a professional job for me to be able to think creatively or collaborate." But actually at university, you've probably done projects. I did a lot of volunteer work when I was that age. And I went out and I lived in Jordan. So there were refugee camps everywhere. And you would go help out and provide your own problem solving skill to areas that needed it, and your own support.
Mira Raley: I did things that were outside of just the normal academics that are expected to do. And even, to be honest, when I was at university, I got jobs through university, not just because I needed the financial support, but actually because I needed to learn. So by the time I went off to apply for my first jobs, I already had a decent enough CV that I could relate back to. And it was more personal stuff. It didn't have to be just career driven job that I was looking for.
Binod: So for example, going back to the CFA context, very importantly. So the CFA Institute runs a annual investment research challenge at the university level.
Mira Raley: Okay.
Binod: So universities can nominate teams. And I strongly encourage universities and students, undergrads to enroll for it because it gives them a fantastic idea, not just how to prepare for a presentation then, but also collaboration, teamwork...
Mira Raley: Absolutely.
Binod: ... details, time management.
Mira Raley: Yeah, yeah. 100%.
Binod: Which are valuable skills that are required before you enter the workplace.
Mira Raley: Absolutely. And I mean, even things, like for me, I remember one of the questions asked was, "How did you deal with a challenging time?" And I used a story of my basketball team. So when I was playing at school and actually at university, we had a circumstance that was very difficult with one of the players. And then, as a team, we got together and found an approach that could help this individual. So I used that story. It had nothing to do with work.
Binod: Basketball is tough.
Mira Raley: Yes.
Binod: I remember going in a basketball court about 20 years ago and I didn't last more than five minutes on the court. And this was when I was not that fit compared to now. But it is tough. You keep running back and forth.
Mira Raley: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Binod: Do you do basketball these days?
Mira Raley: I still do. Yeah. I try and keep, not as much unfortunately. I don't have the time with the whole family.
Binod: So going back to the skills again.
Mira Raley: Yes.
Binod: So we talked about a few skills that are important, right? Creativity, collaboration, communication, time management, adaptability and resilience, for example. And you talked about picking up some of the skills in university itself.
Mira Raley: Yes.
Binod: Very valuable. How else could you pick up the skills? What else could you do?
Mira Raley: There's a lot of different small things I think that you could do. First and most important is talk to people. Actually get out there, speak to your friends, your parents, your cousins, people who are already in the world of work, who can give you just an idea of what it's like, especially where you're planning to apply. Because obviously, that might be different from Dubai to Jordan to India to wherever. The other things is, I think, especially now, the big thing is continuous education or continuous learning. And doing this through reading. Just pick up as much as you possibly can. Interesting books.
Mira Raley: If you're not a reader, then pick up videos. I mean, I watch TED Talks every single day. I listen to podcasts around the realm of experience I work in. So for example, for me, the Radio TED Hour is a 30 minute podcast. Every time I'm driving to work, I have that on. And it's just almost a subconscious learning that's happening for me. But it's perfect because I can relate back to some of these experiences and align it to my own story, which helps me, again, in circumstances like this.
Mira Raley: I think, probably one of the other things is just, by learning and doing all these different things, podcasts, micro-learning, it's a great idea to get somebody who can really support you when you're going through challenging times or you're trying to move forward with something.
Binod: Like a mentor, for example.
Mira Raley: Like a mentor. Exactly. A lot of people feel it's awkward. Why should I go and speak to somebody who's potentially a bit older than I am and ask them these questions. They are absolutely an essence to your survival in this world, just because of the experience they have. I mean, it doesn't mean this is going to be your experience.
Binod: No. No.
Mira Raley: But they can definitely direct you because of the fact that they've had years of experience over yourself.
Binod: Yeah. Yeah.
Mira Raley: So mentor is a great [crosstalk 00:17:31].
Binod: But it's not easy to find a good mentor.
Mira Raley: Yeah.
Binod: And honestly speaking, the good mentors are quite picky about who they mentor as well, because they are devoting their time and energy and attention to this as well.
Mira Raley: Yeah.
Binod: And you had a good mentor at the beginning of your career, you mentioned.
Mira Raley: Yeah.
Binod: The sink or swim episode we talked about earlier.
Mira Raley: Yeah. Very much.
Binod: Very much. You learned a lot, didn't you?.
Mira Raley: And that was through work.
Binod: Yeah.
Mira Raley: But then again, outside of work, I also had a couple of friends who were a little bit older than I was. When I had any career issues or challenges. I would often go and speak to them. So I knew there is about three or four people in my life who I always go by. And I still do till today.
Binod: On speed dial.
Mira Raley: On speed dial. Absolutely. They are so important to my sanity as well, to be honest. Yeah.
Binod: I think you should have more than one mentor, because one mentor alone cannot cover all the range of issues that you have.
Mira Raley: And it's only one pair of eyes, one perspective.
Binod: Yeah.
Mira Raley: By hearing three or four different perspectives, you really get a good idea of what you need to be doing.
Binod: Right. So something else I want to ask you about. Because you're a behavioral facilitator and coach, you understand psychology very well. I find this very odd when I teach or I lecture or I mentor or I advise people, I find that only a tiny fraction actually follows that advice. Now, you know I'm very big on health and fitness and I could scream my lungs out talking about right eating and sleeping well and working out and losing weight. But I find, maybe... I haven't done exact calculation, maybe 1% of those who listen actually implement.
Binod: The same goes for studies. As in focusing regular study, revision in CFA class. And I'm wondering why do you have this huge, what do you call the learning-doing gap between... People know what should be done, they know the importance of it. They even know how to do it. But they simply don't get it done. So from a behavioral perspective, what's your take on this and what are the solutions to that, if you have any?
Mira Raley: Yeah. It's funny you say the whole 1%. There is actually studies...
Binod: Oh really.
Mira Raley: ...that show that, in a learning environment, actually the most you're ever going to get is 10%, if you're lucky.
Binod: Right.
Mira Raley: So that's saying a lot about it. You spend all day training, and actually only 10% of that maybe stuck within the person's brain. To be honest, it's a very, very important question to ask. And that's the same thing that goes over and over for everybody with regards to wanting to lose weight or have a habit. And there are, again, hundreds of studies out there of looking at why people don't necessarily follow habits or are able to maintain a habit from longer than even. At the moment, they average it out, like the resolutions, new year resolutions...
Binod: Oh, yes. I was about to talk about that. Yes.
Mira Raley: By Valentine's day...
Binod: It's done.
Mira Raley: ...98% of people do not follow up. [crosstalk 00:20:12].
Binod: That's not very long.
Mira Raley: No.
Binod: It's like what? Feb 14?
Mira Raley: Yeah.
Binod: One and half months.
Mira Raley: A month and a half of your life, where you're maybe willing to do something, like go to the gym, stop smoking, commit to reading more books. And then... So a month and a half of your life.
Binod: So why?
Mira Raley: My personal view on it is really down to confidence. I think a big part of the reason why people don't necessarily do certain things is because they don't believe that they are capable of doing it. And there's a lot of that going on internally in our brains, these self limiting beliefs, we don't necessarily see ourselves in a way that's worthy. And as a result of that, we tend to, our internal dialogue tends to be a bit more on the negative side. And this whole issue of resilience is a big part of it. If try for a month and a half, and you have a couple of dips or failures within that time or setbacks, again, I think it's eight out of 10 people will actually stop doing what they were expected to doing.
Binod: Correct. Yeah.
Mira Raley: Instead of realizing that this is just a one opportunity where, actually it's a learning experience and you can move through it. So I think that's probably the big thing. I mean, other common things that you will always hear is time and priorities.
Binod: Yes, yes.
Mira Raley: I don't have the time to do this. It's not my priority. I don't have the money to do this.
Binod: But I always say that's an excuse. Right? I mean, saying that I don't have the time is pretty much saying it's not a priority. I mean, I'd rather watch Netflix than go to the gym in the morning.
Mira Raley: Yeah.
Binod: Yeah.
Mira Raley: But I think, again, it comes down to this issue of... When you've got that moment of choice, you've got the thought, I need to go to the gym or I need to go study for my CFA examinations. You have that moment in point where that choice that you make is very much dependent on your mindset. And if the mindset is, it's too hard, this is really going to be dreadful. I can't see myself ever succeeding, so what's the point. Then most likely, you're going to take the route of let's sit down and watch Netflix instead.
Binod: Exactly.
Mira Raley: Right.
Binod: So it goes back to about... I'm sure you know about this mindset approach, the Carol Dweck's famous work on growth mindset...
Mira Raley: Yes. Growth mindset and fixed mindset.
Binod: ... versus fixed mindset, which I keep talking about in class and webinars and things like that. But I keep telling people, you can change from being a fixed mindset person to a growth mindset person. Maybe that's a subject of a different podcast completely. But I think grit is important. I think mindset becomes important, right?
Mira Raley: 100%.
Binod: I mean, when you approach such situations. Because there will be failure and there will be setbacks.
Mira Raley: Yeah. Yeah. Very much so. And the big thing about mindset and dealing with resilience is your ability to be open and honest with yourself, is that first step. If you're saying, "Yeah, I don't know, but that's okay. What am I going to do about it?" Go speak to a mentor. Go find somebody to talk to. Look at it in a different approach. Find a different teacher if that's what you need.
Binod: Well, what you mentioned offline is that you don't know what you don't know, or the term used was unconscious incompetence.
Mira Raley: Exactly.
Binod: Interesting.
Mira Raley: 100% true. Because if you think about it, that's another reason why you're so concerned about your own self limiting beliefs of I'm not going to do this, I'm going to fail. But it's just an assumption. It's nothing more than just an assumption.
Binod: So someone sitting in some remote place of the world listening to us, struggling to achieve his ambitions, suffering from low self esteem and low confidence. What do you tell that person? I mean, you know.
Mira Raley: The biggest thing is, number one is reflect. You've got to sit down and take the time to be open and vulnerable, is really the important word with yourself and with the people around you. And having done that really basically means you have to break down some of these barriers. So a good example could be that, again, we use this example of you're not feeling very, you've got low self esteem. You're in an area that you feel there's no way you can compete against everybody else. You need to start questioning those beliefs in your system. Why do you think that?
Binod: And one reason why they have low self esteem is because they come from a poor background or didn't go to a great college or great school, poor grades. So it sort of builds up. But I keep seeing that, you know what? A great future does not require a great past.
Mira Raley: No. Absolutely.
Binod: Do you agree with that?
Mira Raley: Absolutely. Because the way I see it is, again, the more open, honest and willing to accept who you are for who you are and start to build on that confidence and that worth, the more likely you are going to be approachable in the future, because people will see you for your true self.
Binod: Correct. Correct.
Mira Raley: And that true self is what people really admire and actually seen as a courageous step. A lot of people are not willing to take that step. So you know, you're struggling in a CFA class. If you go up to the teacher and say, "Look, I really am struggling here and I need some help on one, two, three," is much better for you in the long run, then holding yourself in the back of the room and saying, "Oh, I'm not worth. I'm not supposed to be here."
Binod: Which happens a lot, I'm sure, in class as well.
Mira Raley: Yeah.
Binod: So I suppose the first step in achieving self confidence or getting better self esteem is to be self aware. I mean, that's probably the beginning of the journey, isn't it?
Mira Raley: Yes. Very much so.
Binod: Very much so.
Mira Raley: Yeah.
Binod: Yeah. Moving on again. So going back to you specifically, because you come from an interesting background, education, switching careers. Now, getting personal now. And I hope you don't mind about this.
Mira Raley: No. Of course not.
Binod: You're married, happily married, one child, and one child on the way.
Mira Raley: Yes. A lot going on.
Binod: Yeah. Going on. So, I'm single of course as we know. So I'm very curious, does being married and being a mum help in making others better? I mean, can you say you have become a better behavioral facilitator or coach or trainer because you've been through the experience of marriage?
Mira Raley: 100%.
Binod: I shouldn't be promoting marriage.
Mira Raley: Yeah. Exactly. No, I will.
Binod: Given my views on it.
Mira Raley: No. Because I mean, thing is, if you think about it, it's a career of itself. You know what I mean? Having children and being married means all of these characteristics I mentioned earlier around being able to be a better problem solver, collaborate, find ways to be adaptable, learn how to communicate, empathize. I think that is a one absolute most important factor that I've learned from being a wife and a mother is that I've had so much experience of dealing with patients around that, of course. But empathy especially. And my son who is now three and a half...
Binod: Toby.
Mira Raley: Toby. Yes. And the number of times we have to go through the experience now of teaching them very basic foundational skills around sharing or being able to deal and adapt with their emotions. And it's made me realize the one thing that we tend to forget to do is in, let's say, a collaborative discussion, is first of all, to put myself in your shoes. Now with a toddler, it's so much easier because they're so emotional about certain circumstances. And for me to just get his level and tell him that I understand that he's hurting or I understand that he's angry and frustrated, is mind boggling. The difference. How much me just saying that can actually change his ability to communicate.
Binod: So on that note again, a lot of the students I know listen to the podcast as well, are married. They are working women. Some of them even have children. And to be honest, I think the pressures and constraints faced by working women are much more than faced by their male counterparts, especially if you have kids.
Mira Raley: Yes. [inaudible 00:27:50].
Binod: So how did you balance career and family, especially with a growing family?
Mira Raley: Yes. Well, I'm very much a part of this conversation right now because one of the big areas that I'm focused on at the moment is women in leadership.
Binod: Okay.
Mira Raley: And there's actually studies that show, even in a working family. So if both the mother and the father are working, the mother still does two times as much housework and three times as much childcare versus a father who is... And they're probably both doing nine to five jobs.
Binod: A very unequal partnership.
Mira Raley: So this is the reality of the world that we live in. Having said that, I think there is a big thing from the female perspective and my own, is this super woman syndrome I like to call, which is this feeling that we have to keep every bowl up in the air all the time. I've got my own wellbeing and physical ability to stay fit and proper. I've got my children who I have to take care of. I've got house and in-laws who I need to be concerned around. And then I also have this passion for my career that I want to follow.
Mira Raley: And I'm no longer living in the 1950s, where that's no longer a choice. Right? But then the problem is how do you keep all those balls up in the air all the time?
Binod: Correct. Yes.
Mira Raley: Reality is you can't, unless you find a partner who is a real partner in supportive, or at least having those conversations, frank, open, courageous conversations, and ensuring that you give yourself that time and, again, confidence to deal with these circumstances in a way that you think is possible.
Binod: So I'm assuming that time management becomes critical.
Mira Raley: Huge. Hugely.
Binod: Personal effectiveness becomes very, very important.
Mira Raley: Yeah. And knowing what's important. When it comes down to me, the whole issue for me now is, I followed my passions, I think from a very early stage in my life. Even though my education was very off, but I still followed my passion at the time around travel. I then continued to follow my passion and left my career to go travel for a year and a half of my life with my husband and came back, and then continue to follow my passions again in training and development in areas I thought were impactful. And so I don't feel like work is work. You know what I mean?
Binod: Yes.
Mira Raley: And there are days, of course, there are days where you're like, "No. This nine to five. I just want to be home."
Binod: Yeah.
Mira Raley: But at the same time, I think it's because I love what I do, that I'm willing to do it, and not be concerned about the guilt I have towards the rest of my life.
Binod: Right. You mentioned a keyword earlier, and I'm going to pick up on that as well. Passion. Because these days, I hear a lot of youngsters saying, "By the way, I don't know what my passion is. I'm a chartered accountant, I'm a CFA charter holder, blah, blah, blah, MBA. Now doing, I don't know, equity analysis. I'm not so," What do you call it? Don't be in love with it.
Mira Raley: Yeah. Yeah.
Binod: And he's heard about people who found their passion and become incredibly successful and famous and everything. So the question is, how do you find your passion? I mean, does it suddenly, you wake up one fine morning and boom?
Mira Raley: No, definitely not.
Binod: I don't think so.
Mira Raley: Like I say, I mean, I started off with a completely different set of passions that were more about my adventure and my fun.
Binod: But it never went down that road of being a tour leader, or climbing mountains, or kayaking or whatever.
Mira Raley: No. I could have. I had the choice, to be honest. But I also realized that to me, I didn't feel at the time that I wanted it as a career. It just didn't seem to fit perfectly with what I saw that to be. And that sense of adventure would have almost been taken away from that experience. I will say I was lucky in the sense that I fell into the right department at the time, that was coincidental. Really going back to my idea of learning how to train through my hospitality days and then learning how to freelance.
Mira Raley: But I think another big part of it is my drive. Or in general, the way I see it is I found an interest, an interest that I didn't know I had, and I pursued it. Even though it wasn't a career at the time. I didn't see it as a career at the time or I wasn't sure how it would be a career. This is the advice I would give anybody, is you start off not really knowing until, again, you don't know what you don't know, until you know.
Binod: So basically, it's going to be a long, possibly painful [inaudible 00:31:59] journey. Go down several paths. No, this is not for me.
Mira Raley: Yeah.
Binod: Which takes time.
Mira Raley: Yeah, very much so.
Binod: So it will take several years for you to figure it out.
Mira Raley: Yeah. And I'll give you an example with my husband who had a very different career background. He started off in the army and did six years in the military services in England, left and had been... As soon as he left, he was genuinely not sure what he wanted to do and had this whole issue of feeling lost and didn't have a passion for any specific career. Right? But what he always knew he was very good at and he loved doing, was working with people.
Binod: There you go.
Mira Raley: That's it. So that was all that he needed to know. He built his career around that. And he's now, thankfully, a very successful man in doing what he does. And a lot of it is because he works in doing exactly that. His entire industry is about working with people. His job role itself is about working with people.
Binod: Right.
Mira Raley: And definitely not something he saw when he was 22, joining the military.
Binod: So I suppose one way of finding out what you're passionate about or what you're good at is probably saying, "Okay, am I good with people or good with numbers?" I mean, very crudely, of course. Or good at processes. What about, things like that.
Mira Raley: Yeah. And the thing that you really enjoy doing. Like you can spend hours doing it and be lost in it. Never think about what the rest of the day looks like.
Binod: Right.
Mira Raley: And that's what you need to pursue.
Mira Raley: Right. Do you think that any.... These days where everything's available online, do you think there is anything that can be recommended to listeners where they could go online and figure out, "Okay, filling a questionnaire, do a self test and possibly find out broadly what are the carriers suited to me and what are the skills that I have for those carriers?"
Mira Raley: Yeah, I mean there is. It's funny you say this. So when I was at university and I was going through this experience, I'm not really sure what I wanted to do. I did a career test then.
Binod: Okay.
Mira Raley: And my career tests then told me that I was going to end up in an HR role.
Binod: Not far from what you're doing now.
Mira Raley: Not far from what I'm doing now. And I didn't believe it. And I said, "No. It's not my interest. Definitely, it sounds boring." And I moved on. And it was basically HR professional, police woman, and then I can't even remember the third one. Or a hotel.
Binod: I just can't imagine as a police woman. That is way off.
Mira Raley: But what it was picking up on was, again, the idea of helping others.
Binod: Yes.
Mira Raley: Which again comes down to my own values and beliefs. That is one thing that I am so passionate about. And so I think, again, why facilitation, training, coaching has worked so well for me is because it aligns so nicely with my values.
Binod: Right.
Mira Raley: Yeah. So I would recommend that is definitely an option. I always say, get yourself out of the comfort zone.
Binod: Right.
Mira Raley: Try...
Binod: Something new.
Mira Raley: Yes. Even if you're not sure, put yourself out there. Yeah. And don't forget to have fun in the process.
Binod: Yeah. Yeah.
Mira Raley: But by putting yourself out there and stepping out of your comfort zone, you're taking risks. You might fail, but fail forward. Remember that's a learning lesson.
Binod: Yeah. Yeah.
Mira Raley: And I've set up my own businesses thinking that's what I wanted to do. It didn't go so well. I pulled down the businesses. But it was a huge learning experience.
Binod: So if it was to advise people on, youngsters on three lessons, given your significant experiences in dealing with people and different carriers, three lessons in life and career, what are those three be? Top three.
Mira Raley: One of the big things that I follow myself, and I absolutely love this, Amy Cuddly. I'm not sure if you've heard of her.
Binod: Yeah. Yeah.
Mira Raley: She has a Ted Talk and a book about Presence.
Binod: Yes.
Mira Raley: And one of the things she talks about is, fake it till you become it. And I totally believe in this. And I think the reason why I believe in this is because of the fact that when I joined the training department, the churning industry, I didn't think I was very good, and I didn't necessarily know what I was doing. But because I jumped into freelance quite early on after my hospitality days, I felt if I didn't seem as somebody who knew what they were doing, I would never actually get any work. And so I felt at the time I just have to fake it. How are they going to know? What difference is it really me just faking it?
Binod: Yes.
Mira Raley: And I genuinely think it's because of the fact that I took that approach, I was eventually able to become it. And I now feel very comfortable doing what I do. And I think a big part of that is because of the fact that I was willing to just take that risk. And that's probably my second life lesson, which is, I've mentioned this already, stepping out of your comfort zone.
Binod: Right.
Mira Raley: Do the things that you think are impossible. But don't forget to have fun.
Binod: Absolutely. Very important.
Mira Raley: Yeah. very much so. Yeah.
Binod: Very important.
Mira Raley: Now, whatever you do, follow your passions. And the money, whether it follows or not is not important.
Binod: Correct.
Mira Raley: You'll just be a happier person.
Binod: I tell people the same thing, especially youngsters. Don't focus too much on how much money you're making now. Focus on learning, and being in the right place, hopefully the right company and the right mentor and the right bunch of people.
Mira Raley: Yeah.
Binod: [inaudible 00:36:39].
Mira Raley: And listen to yourself. I mean, I think a big thing about this part of the world especially, is your background, your history, your family especially, have a very strong idea of what you should be. And it's usually tends to be a profession. You need to be an accountant, a lawyer, an engineer.
Binod: Doctor.
Mira Raley: A doctor. And then you force yourself into these circumstances and realize, genuinely, it's not what you want to be doing. I had those conversations with my father growing up. I think I was always a rebel. And he still says that. But now he looks back at our history and he's very proud of what I've done with myself. And I think that was because I wasn't so concerned about what other people were saying to me and much more followed my gut instinct of what I knew was a passion for me. And I wouldn't use the word passion at the time. It was just something I enjoyed doing. That's all it was. It was developed into a passion.
Binod: Well, I've seen you in action. Last time we went together.
Mira Raley: Yes. There was a session. That's right.
Binod: We join-led a session at a university about a year ago.
Mira Raley: Yes.
Binod: And I think you were absolutely brilliant.
Mira Raley: Thank you.
Binod: And very authentic and very impactful. I think that's what you're trying to achieve anyway.
Mira Raley: I hope so. That's definitely what I try.
Binod: But we could talk on and on for this forever.
Mira Raley: Yeah.
Binod: But unfortunately, it has to come to an end at some point. Thank you so much Mira...
Mira Raley: Absolutely. Thank you again.
Binod: ... for coming on the podcast and sharing so many important lessons in life and career with the audience. And I hope they also take it forward and implement what we have discussed today.
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Binod: This podcast is brought to you by The Real Finance Mentor. Thank you so much for listening. And I hope you found it insightful and inspirational. If you did enjoy this episode, please drop us a review and spread the word, and be sure to check out more exclusive content on therealfinancementor.com and my LinkedIn profile, which is Binod Shankar CFA. Let's keep in touch. Just add your name to the mailing list on therealfinancementor.com and we'll tell you about new episodes plus book reviews, upcoming events and blogs. Till the next time, onwards and upwards.
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