Episode 19: Minakshi Agarwal Todi | The Real Finance Mentor Podcast
The RFM podcast is about transformational success stories. And Minakshi’s is definitely one such. For someone so young she’s seen and done a lot. From Bcom student to top-ranked UK business school to a high flying Investment Banker in London to chucking it all away to pursue entrepreneurship and impact by teaching and bringing financial literacy to the masses via her startup. Listen to the remarkable story of a remarkable young lady
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Binod Shankar:
This is Binod Shankar and you’re listening to the real finance mentor podcast from the realfinancemnetor.com. The real finance mentor is your go-to resource for insight and inspiration on careers in finance, CFA and more. Now you might think, why this podcast? Well, my goal is to deliver insight and inspiration for your financial career, by making it, one: relatable. I mean this is not theoretical stuff. We zero-in on the critical, practical issues. Number two: authentic. No bullshit, no side-stepping. The topics, guests and questions are all from that perspective. And number three: insightful. Take a Chartered accountant and a CFA charter holder, add 17-plus years as a corporate warrior, mix in 10-plus years of entrepreneurship, throw in a decade of full time CFA training. Add speaking, mentoring, cycling, mountaineering and other endurance activities, and that’s me! Welcome to The Real Finance Mentor, or as I call it: RFM.
Binod Shankar:
Hello, everyone. This is Binod Shankar here with the next episode of The Real finance mentor podcast, the podcast that delivers insight and inspiration for your finance careers. And today I have another special guest, someone who is quite young, who has done a lot in her young career. Let me introduce you to Minakshi Agarwal Todi.
Minakshi is a commerce graduate from HR College in Mumbai. She then jumped straight into a Master's from Cass Business School in the UK, and then vaulted into the hallowed world of investment banking, with JP Morgan in London, right smack in the middle of the city. And somewhere after that, for reasons that she will explain to us, she took a sudden turn and went into entrepreneurship. And she right now heads an entity called Fin Box, which is heavily into financial literacy, financial education, for the masses; which something she believe passionately about. In between, of course, she's also a visiting faculty at ISME Business School in Mumbai. And she does quite a few other things as well, but she will tell us about during our talk. So, welcome to the show, Minakshi.
Minakshi:
Thank you.
Binod Shankar:
I've got a lot of questions to ask you, as you can imagine. I mean, given your very interesting background; I'm not going to reveal anything to the listeners right now. I think I want you to tell your own story. But first, something very curious. I just noticed in your profile that you have dabbled in the world of Chartered Accountancy, but then you quit soon after IPCC, which I think is the equivalent of inter. So, my question is, why do you start and then leave the hallowed world of Chartered accountancy, which a lot of people you know, dream and struggle, and finally get off?
Minakshi:
Correct. And this is a very interesting place for you to start because you're starting with something I didn't do. After my 10th standard so, I got 89.38% in my 10th standard, which was considered to be a very, very good grade back then. And I got my choice of colleges. I decided to pick HR college, which was in South Bombay and I wanted to pursue a career in finance. I was always good with numbers. I was always good with logic. Accounting, in general, was not very hard, was pretty easy for me. And while pursuing my B. Com, a lot of my friends told me that you know, Minakshi, you have ambition but having a B. Com degree is not going to be enough in today's competitive world. So, with that mindset, I decided, “Okay, let me pick up some extra qualifications”. And I decided to start pursuing my CA.
I gave my entrance exam with hope and, you know, a lot of prayers, and I surprisingly passed and did very, very well. And I realized that I'm enjoying this. I'm good at it. I also passed my IPCC, which you’re right, is, in the olden days, the Inter-CA. Nowadays, they also give you a qualification as an accounting technician. So, I'm also a qualified accounting technician. But I never finished my CA. So, even though I was really good at it, my main ambition was to go abroad, and study finance abroad. And back then I had to make a choice.
So, soon as I finished my B. Com, I got accepted into Cass Business School London, for the September 2013 intake. And I also got a scholarship. So, I got the Vipin Sareen Foundation Scholarship, along with my offer letter. And I was so confused because, on one hand, I was getting this opportunity to go abroad and study and on the other hand, my CA Final attempt was the very next year in November. So, at that point, I had to make a choice. Which one do I want to go ahead with? So, I made my choice. I decided to go abroad and pursue my master's degree and did not finish my CA. It was all about timing. If I had a choice back then to do both, somehow, I probably would have done both. But it was all about timing.
Binod Shankar:
So probably what you can say is Chartered Accountancy’s loss is Investment Banking’s gain at that point. Probably, now the financial education sector’s gain, if you look at it that way.
Minakshi:
Very true. And looking back, a lot of people might ask, do you have any regrets? And I say, “No, I really picked the path that got me where I wanted to be”.
Binod Shankar:
Now, you said you did your masters from Cass Business School in the UK. That's quite an unusual jump at that age and stage of your life and career. So, I've got two questions for you. My first question is: why the masters?
Minakshi:
So, I was looking for a one-year postgraduate program. And I was looking for it in the UK, given its proximity to India. Also, back then, the UK work-visa was pretty flexible if you managed to get corporate sponsorship, and I had little to no work experience, having just finished my undergraduate degree. I was 21 years old. I didn't want to waste any time thinking. I wanted to go abroad, finish my education, become that girl who has a corner office.
In India, it's a little scary being I would say a girl in her 20s, because the society always tells you to get married. And I don't want to risk any such complication where I'm still deciding, still thinking about it. I said, “let me just go and do it”. Which is why I decided to pick a one-year Master's. I'll be eligible to work in the UK. I'll apply for a big-four firm because I have an accountancy background. So, I do get a lot of exemptions if I do choose to do the ACCA, which is the CA equivalent in the UK. The UK work-visa back then needed sponsorship by a company and students were allowed only to stay up to six months after their degree got over. So, based on all the rules and the fact that it was so close to India, I decided, “Okay, I want to do a master's degree and UK was my target”.
Binod Shankar:
Right. So, that explains why the master's degree. In fact, I'm going to come back to this statement you made earlier about the girl graduates in India and you know, women in finance in general. But my next major question is: why Cass Business School?
Minakshi:
So, Cass Business School ranked 11th in Europe back then, and third in the UK, in terms of a finance program. And their finance program was geared specifically towards freshers with no work experience. So, I wanted to be somewhere, where I wasn't expected to have already worked, already applied my knowledge, where I was still in the learning phase of life. And all I needed was a really good GMAT score and good grades. They asked me for an 80%, I got a 90%. So, I was a good student. I had the grades. And that's why I picked Cass. I did apply to LSE, Warwick, I applied to a few other schools. But for me, and for the number of people I had spoken to, I had really done my research. Cass was the best bet to reach the corner office overlooking London that I was thinking of.
Binod Shankar:
At this stage, I'm feeling a mixture of admiration and envy because someone so young, probably figured out exactly what was the route to get to the corner office. I think, when I was your age, I had absolutely no clue, apart from just nailing the Chartered Accountancy, and sort of waiting for what comes next. So, kudos to you, for sort of knowing how to get to where you wanted to get to. I've got one more question regarding your master's journey. What did you exactly pick up? What do you learn while doing your masters at Cass Business School in terms of both skills, and in terms of attitude towards education, career, life, etc?
Minakshi:
When I first joined Cass business school, I genuinely thought it would be all about the academics. It was about getting that master's degree. But the most important thing I learned at Cass business school wasn't academics, it was networking. They really taught us how to speak to people, get to know people, build ties, make connections, and this helped me a lot in my corporate journey. I ended up, I would say, at JP Morgan, all because of the networking at Cass. I may have never even considered applying to JP Morgan if I hadn't attended a JP Morgan networking event at Cass Business School, where all these people from the risk community were there. They talked about the job. They looked really good. And they looked like they had a good life, a good thing going. And that's what actually even motivated me to end up applying to JP Morgan. So, the biggest and most important thing that I learned was networking. Something else that I've picked up at Cass that’s still close to me today, I wouldn't say it's a thing; but my closest friends, the people I trust, for advice and for life advice, are the people I met at Cass Business School. Because ultimately, you're in an atmosphere, an ecosystem with like-minded people. And these are the people that end up guiding you. So, my closest friends have been from Cass Business School. So that's, I would say my most prized treasure that I've picked up.
Binod Shankar:
It’s very interesting when you say this Minakshi, because the guest on my previous episode of The RFM podcast, Hanutosh Baria, who also happens to be an ex-student of mine and a CFA charter holder, he's also been through business school, but this time in the US, and he made it to Barclays. And he said exactly the same thing also similar lines. He said, one of the biggest, if not the biggest benefit of going to business school, was the connections and the networks. Because that's how he got into Barclays, where he is right now working in investment banking.
So, let me talk about, let's move on to your career in investment banking, which is a very interesting field, and quite difficult to get into. Now, I remember, you told me in one of our discussions earlier, that you were the only Indian woman on the floor, and the only woman in a team of 11, at JPMorgan. Now, investment banking is also typically a male-dominated world, right? So, not only were you an ethnic minority, but you're also a woman. So, you’re like a double minority. So, my main question here would be, what are the challenges you faced being a minority i.e., Indian, within a minority- female? And the related question would be, how did you deal with these challenges?
Minakshi:
Wow, that's a tough one. I would say that IB is a very male dominated field. So, anyone going into IB, they’re already prepared with that mindset- that IB is very male dominated. And why most organizations try to encourage women in the field, it's not very easy. I think my age, so I was 21 back then, when I joined JP Morgan. No, I was 22. My young age and my face; I will say that did not help as well. You see a young person, all bubbly and ready to work, and you don't take them very seriously. So, it was very difficult to be taken seriously. I learned how to conform finally, to dress codes. So, the blacks, the greys, the blues, how to have elevator conversations. Conversations about, “Oh, how's the weather? Yes, it's hot. It's been hot today. We've had a hot weekend. It's been a dry spell. Or, what are your plans for the weekend? I mean, I think at some point, I had got tuned to doing all this even without thinking.
There was always politics at play. So, when you're being staffed; so, you have a staff for and you work in a team, and depending on your workload, you get staffed on various deals. So, it took me time to realize that, “Okay, if you didn't speak up, you could be left out”. Because it was all about being a go getter. You had to push yourself and you had to make place for yourself at the table. If you were just sitting there silently, you would be as good as ignored. And being like you said, a woman and an Indian woman, you had to be even more pushy, and you really have to speak up and speak out. And there was nobody who was going to handhold you, or help you. Because everyone had to do it for themselves.
There was something else about having that face time culture. So, what is face time culture? It's when you stay around at work, looking busy, when you're not actually very busy. And that was something I saw in some of the other teams because I would see people working till really late and I used to say, am I doing less? Or you know, am I not working hard enough? Why am I still not needing to be here? And luckily, I was blessed. I had a very good manager, whoever saw me working past 6:30 would come and check. ” Is this important? Can you go home and do this tomorrow”? So, touch wood, I was blessed. But that face time culture was something that was interesting and different. Because you think, as soon as you finish your work, you will be out the door. Why would you sit around and you know look pretty? And these people like my manager, and people who encouraged me, saying, “Come on, speak up! You can do it”. These were the people who really kept me going. But all in all, yes, it was hard.
Binod Shankar:
Yeah. I mean, IB is a legendarily tough career. Difficult sector to get into, difficult sector to survive in, forget about thriving. Now, I recall, you also mentioned in a previous conversation we had. You mentioned being surprised at the level of multitasking and efficiency required or demanded at the job. And you did say that you were initially quite unprepared for the rigors of investment banking at JP Morgan. So, I'm very curious, what were your aptitude gaps and how did you close these gaps while on the job?
Minakshi:
Firstly, when I got the job, I thought I was pretty cool. Because back then not many people were getting jobs, and being a woman and being an Indian woman, I got an investment banking job. So, I thought, “Hey, I'm already halfway there”. But to my shock, when I first received my very first piece of feedback from my manager, and this was in the very first team that I was in, I’d just joined, I was young, we were three months in, and I was told that I was very shy, I was very quiet, and I did what was asked of me. And I just thought to myself, “For the love of God, why is that a bad thing? You know, I'm quiet. I'm shy. And I do what you tell me to? How can that possibly be a bad thing”? And now I realize what my manager was trying to say. What she was trying to tell me was, you should ask more questions, voice your opinion, don't do what's asked of you, do more than that. Go above and beyond because nothing is going to make you stand out if you just do what you're told. You have to do more, you have to think out of the box, you have to give more.
And I knew at some point that this was my first real job, this was no longer school. So, I had to take on board these feedbacks given by my manager because if I didn't, I wouldn't survive. And it was survival of the fittest. So, in order to address the feedback, I joined some work committees. So, we had a very social culture at work as well where you had committees, you had sporting activities, you had a lot of things going on, and it was really up to you to join it. So, I joined something called WIRE- it was ‘Women in Risk Exchange’. And I also volunteered to beta test some new Excel tools. So, I ended up working with teams across the globe. So, I had some contacts in the American team, some in the Australian, a few in India. And this kind of helped me put myself out there.
I also eventually ended up, ironically, teaching this tool at the in-house University. And why I say ironic is because I'm a teacher now. So, I didn't even know I was getting myself into this profession back then, while I was still in banking. And putting myself in all of these roles, I actually forced myself to interact with people, collaborate with more people, open up and start speaking. I also made it a point.
So, there's a very fun culture in the UK called Friday drinks, where a lot of your colleagues, a lot of people from other departments, we all meet up at usually the bar across the road, and you end up chatting, you end up gossiping, you end up talking. But it's a way to show your face, it's a way to kind of get known, because ultimately when person A is talking to Person B, and they say, “Oh, do you know of this person?” You want to be known. You want to exist in their culture.
I had to devote a lot more time because of these added responsibilities that I had taken up- the tool and the WIRE. But I underwent a very large personality change. So, when you meet me today, and I tell you, “Hey, I used to be a shy, quiet girl”. I think, for a lot of people who know me now, that's unimaginable because my personality change, my attitude shift, I’m no longer seen as that shy, quiet girl.
And in fact, the funny thing was when I was quitting JP Morgan, so, in my last few months, my feedback was that I'm very confident and I voiced my opinion quite strongly. And again, I was left a little confused because I was like, I'm not sure if this is a good thing, or a bad thing. But one of the most important lessons that IB taught me is that you can never only get good feedback. In fact, giving another person just positive feedback is not good enough. While it's nice to hear nice things about yourself, you need someone to criticize you. Because if you don't get that to teach, you won't grow. So, while I did appreciate that when I was there, being where I am today, I really understand it. Because when someone tells me nice things, I say, “Yes, that's great but that's not helpful. That's not making me grow”. So, I would say my IB experience really made me who I am today.
Binod Shankar:
Interesting. I mean, you learned a lot about yourself, I suppose, the required skills. But my question also would be- what did you love exactly about your job in investment banking? What was it that made you work so hard and rise up in the morning to go to work?
Minakshi:
You know, when I imagined being in investment banking, I imagined it would be like the movies. So, there was this show called Suits, which came out in 2011, which was two years before I actually went to the UK. And it showed very good-looking fit men, women, super nice offices, you know, the business class travel-life, working on important deals through the night. And that was my life. My life was exactly like that. I was living the Suit's life, and everyone speaks very lowly of IB. But there is a lot to love. My workplace, it was this tall, shiny, glass building at 25 Bank Street, Canary Wharf. As soon as you came out of the tube station, it just stood there towering. It was so impressive! And then to walk into that office, you felt so nice, you got greeted by the staff, they recognized you; you felt that belonging somewhere. Every morning you walk in, you feel good about yourself walking into that building. The decor is nice, everything looks good, smells good.
So, apart from the aesthetics, I also really loved the work I did, because I felt like I was finally putting all my studying to use. This was my first real job. And I felt that all those hours of studying accounts, studying financial statements, studying finance, it was finally paying off. I was finally using what I learned. And my work did involve a fair bit of client meetings, travels, I spent a lot of hours behind the computer screen, which I guess comes with the job, right? But um, each day in the office was a different day. So, whenever anyone asked me, “What was your typical day like”? That's a hard question. Because no two days were ever the same. It was constantly evolving, constantly learning, and you never got bored. So, I really loved my life and my job. Of course, every good thing has a flip side. But um, yeah!
Binod Shankar:
Lest someone think that this is like a promotional event for Investment Banking. I think I'm going to get you to talk about why you quit investment banking where it will all come out, the other side of investment banking. But I’ve got a more important, (what do you call) I would say, a ‘strategic question’ for you.
Why is it that so many women enter investment banking, but not many ended up staying for more than a few years? So, if you look at any major bank and look at investment banking, you would see very few women near or at the top. Of course, JP Morgan recently, Jamie Dimon did say that the head of M&A at JP Morgan was an Indian woman, which was interesting to see. But otherwise, it's a tiny, tiny minority. What is happening?
Minakshi:
It comes down to, I would guess, cultural barriers as well. So, investment banking is very demanding. They have really long and deadline-bound working hours. And in India, we are used to seeing men work out late. They come late from work, we're used to that, because we're used to men being bread-earners. India's very conservative when you think about women working in the office till the wee hours of the morning. While I was in London, I was often in the office till 9 or 10 pm every day. Sometimes I was even there as late as 2 am on the busy deal time. And it was not unheard of, for me to work over weekends. I used to speak to my parents in India quite regularly. And eventually, they got used to the idea that yes, one weekend every month, Minakshi is working.
And while the pay is lovely, the work-life balance is not so great. This is an industry phenomenon. You're getting compensated to be there and deliver. You're getting paid for the number of hours you put in. So, when it comes to women staying on in banking, I would say time is one of the main reasons. Of course, there are other factors. I mean, women leave because they have other interests. They want quieter lives, some want a change of careers, some find it a very high-pressure environment. But a lot of it also has to do with the pressure and the time commitment. If you look at the majority of all the top women CEOs, or women in banking, who have you know, really risen to the top, I'm sure if we asked them what they had to sacrifice, that's a sufficiently long list. And from what I can tell, one of the main reasons is that once a woman gets married, she starts a family, her priorities change. I could have imagined that I ended up quitting banking still as a single woman, but I can imagine my priorities would change.
In India, the culture is also that some women have to seek permission from their spouse, from their in-laws, and they may not even get that permission, or they might get it with a few restrictions and investment banking doesn't care about your restrictions. I mean, they're paying you to be there, they're paying you to deliver. So, this is probably what causes women to leave the industry and not end up staying beyond those first few years.
Binod Shankar:
So, this neatly segues to my next question. So, you had a corner office in 25 Bank Street, Canary Wharf. You worked in London, in a top bank, JP Morgan. You earned very well, for anyone of your age. You've worked with some very smart, multicultural colleagues on some exciting projects, you’ve travelled the world and business class, etc, etc. So, here's my million-dollar question- Why did you quit investment banking when all this seems like a dream job for millions of youngsters aspiring to break into this exciting sector? Was there a trigger event that made you do this?
Minakshi:
Oh, wow, this is a hard one too. Um, I would say that, as I was approaching, so I finished my first two years and it was very nice because it was a rotation program. So, every year I worked with a different team. So, as I was approaching the end of my third year, and my third team, I started paying more attention to my health, to my fitness.I started meditation. And this all I would say, was like an outcome of JP Morgan as well, because JP Morgan had a health test, and all employees had to take one every two years. And when I did mine, towards my second year, I realized I was stressed. My doctor told me I needed to lose weight, I needed to get fitter. And honestly, I hadn't become that unhealthy. But it was a wake-up call. Because I was always a very slimly built person. So, this was really shocking for me that someone's telling me, “Hey, you need to lose weight”. And I didn't realize that my new lifestyle and all the stress, the long hours, the random eating, it eventually does take a toll on your health.
And I sat there thinking, that I'm working really hard and I'm really good at my job. But what is all this for? I wasn't able to see the benefit that regular people would get from my work. So, while I was working really hard and making money for JP Morgan, I couldn't see the common man really getting affected by my work. It was more like, “Okay, I was spending my health, I was really getting a lot of money, and that was it”. It was like a banker’s club. And you only hung out with bankers, and it was only us who benefited. And I didn't like that. I felt like I was not in a win-win situation.
So, I decided to quit my job to do something more meaningful with my life. I wanted to take up more time to pay attention to my own health. But at the same time, I wanted to find something where I didn't feel like I was in a club. Where I felt like, “Hey, whatever I'm doing, I can actually see some tangible impact for all. And finance is a field where that's a scary decision to make.
Binod Shankar:
Well, finance is also a field where it is scarce to see or to be able to make an impact and also have personal well-being, right? So, I must congratulate you for, for having the foresight or for having the what do you call, , the vision to see where this is heading and to realize what you actually want to do in life. Because honestly, many people, not just in their 20s and 30s, but well into their 40s, never really get to do what they want to do, or even what they really good at. So, a big thumbs up and I hope more youngsters after experiencing certain aspects of life, sit down, introspect and decide what they really want to do.
But talking about your quitting the job as well, I remember you telling me, it wasn't exactly a brilliant work atmosphere, because of supervisory attitudes, etc, etc. Especially about women, bosses and women in banking. I’ve got a couple of questions here.
1) What is the effect on teams, of women aspiring to be like men, in a male-dominated environment like investment banking, when they change themselves?
2) What do they end up being and how do they affect people around them?
Because you have experienced that yourself, if I have not been mistaken?
Minakshi:
I find that when women are in leadership positions, and they're surrounded by men, you don't want to appear weak or soft. So at that point you want to appear strong, you want to appear hard, you want to have a hard exterior, because you want to say that, “Hey, I'm strong. I'm confident. I'm not weak. I can treat men and women equally”. So, I find whatwomen end up doing sometimes is:
1) They end up being harder on other women, because they're trying to show, okay, we're very impartial. We're not favouring our sex. We're equal with all.
2) Women also work with that notion that I struggled and got here. I did it. So, why can't you? Why are you weaker? Why are you not up to the mark? And I guess this doesn't help their subordinates. So, you end up disliking your woman-boss sometimes because of that.
But honestly, I don't even think she knows she's doing it. And how would you handle it or how would you handle a tough boss then? I mean, I wish someone had told me this back then- the best way to handle a bully is to stand up to them. I mean, no one can really tell you off for being honest about your limitations. If I have a time restriction, or I'm unable to do something, because I don't know- how? Rather than struggling, fretting, submitting work late, the best thing to do is have an honest conversation about what's not working for you. As far as the system goes, the more you give, the more they’ll take. So, it's up to you. How much you want to put in as a woman. And whether it's a woman boss, or whether it's that environment, it's up to you to speak out. No one's going to do that for you. And this is not just an investment banking thing, I would say women anywhere, they must speak out, and they must voice their limitations because the other person is not a mind reader. They don't know to expect that. So, it's really up to you, I would say.
Binod Shankar:
Absolutely! I think I love that sentence where you just said, “Nobody can tell you off for being honest about your limitations, whether it is time or skill”. It's actually quite a rare attribute. Because many youngsters, probably even most youngsters in the early stages of their career are so scared of saying, “I don't know how to do it or that I don't have the time”. They simply say yes to their bosses. They can never say no to their boss, and as a result, they get overloaded and they deliver sometimes half-baked work, or decent quality work, but in extremely stressful situations. So, I think I like that statement of yours. It requires a lot of authenticity and courage, to be honest, to stand up and say that. Especially in these times, when jobs are not secure and supply for jobs is far less than the demand for jobs. So, that's a very good point you made.
Now let's talk about your switch. The big jump you made. It was quite interesting, of course. You switched from; I wouldn’t say switch actually, I would say you jumped. It is a massive jump you made from investment banking to teaching. It's a remarkable shift in many ways, not the least because it's so rare and so different. So, I know that you had sort of dabbled in teaching at some early stage. You mentioned that during the interview. But why teaching?
Minakshi:
Honestly, it was fate. It was fate that brought me here. And while that may sound cheesy, let me tell you how I got there. So, after I quit JP Morgan, I set out on a solo trip around the world. And I had decided that when I quit, for a year I'm going go traveling. I visited lots of cities. I went across America- Vegas, Seattle, Hawaii, did skydiving, went to Europe, Asia, even Southeast Asia, I even travelled a little bit around India. So, I really went all out. And I met a lot of people from different backgrounds, from different cultures, from different nationalities, really met a lot of different people. And I realized that while we were all different, there is something that genuinely ties us together. And the answer is not humanity. I mean, that does too. But the answer is money, finances. Because we all work so hard. We work on our education, we work to get jobs, we want to earn money to afford nice things, to afford travel, to afford a comfortable lifestyle. And all of these people from all these different backgrounds, whether that was architects, designers, playing sports, people in the advertising world, everyone was working hard to make money.
And so many people I met were buried in debt. A lot of people had taken out loans to travel. A lot of them did not have certainty on their next paycheck. A lot of them had little to no savings. And me being 25 at that point, I was still so conscious that I had built up savings. I had savings post my travel. I did not take debt for my travel. And I thought that, “Hey isn't that what everyone would do, logically”?. And that's when I realized that the reason behind this was that a lot of people thought finance was scary. They just trusted their financial decisions on someone else, or they ignored them. Or they thought that he will figure it out when the time comes. So, either they simply accumulate the earnings in the bank account, which by the way, does not fight inflation. So that's not very helpful. And it's not going to accumulate at the pace they are thinking it's going to accumulate. So that was not very helpful.
So, to cut a long story short, I met so many people. And after one year of travel, when I moved back to India bag and baggage, I didn't know what I wanted to do. But I knew it had to do with something about solving this problem of people not wanting to know more about their own money. I thought that was crazy. And again, as fate would have it, I happened to meet up with one of my old professors from college. And she ended up offering me a teaching position as faculty of finance at ISME School of Management and Entrepreneurship. And this was under the guidance of someone very, very dear to me, under the guidance of Dr. Indu Shahani. She was my college principal when I was at HR college, and now she was heading this fabulous institution. So, I said, “Hey, why not? I taught undergraduate students finance. And these young 18-year-olds, that came to me they had little or no knowledge of finance, as this wasn't a topic taught in schools”. So, as I left our sessions, I realized that, “Hey, they don't know much in terms of real-life application of Finance”. And for me to start teaching them, this was a very, very fulfilling experience. Because a lot of my young 18-year-olds became so money-wise that now I have them coming to me saying we're starting SIPS, we've made investments. I said, “Hey, when you guys become 30, you better give me a cut, because you got a whole lot of good advice there”. So, after that, I was also asked to teach the postgraduate students of the MBA program, and these students were older, so I just assumed they would have more knowledge and you know, would be in more control of their money matters, and maybe even have a financial plan. But how wrong I was, when I realized this, I said, “Okay, not only should finance be taught right from school, but even adults need to learn about basic money management”. So, this is how I ended up as a teacher.
Binod Shankar:
Yes. I mean, financial literacy, or illiteracy is really so important that people don't give it enough importance. Let's talk about financial literacy, a favourite topic of mine. And, of course, which is your life's object and passion these days. Now, the entity that you founded and you currently lead, ‘Finance Box’, seems to be picking up traction in the drive towards reducing financial literacy. So, I've got three questions for you here, Minakshi. We'll go one by one.
1) What explains the rising popularity?
Minakshi:
Um, I think with the advent of technology, young people, older people, housewives, everyone's being exposed to more content. The world has really opened up in terms of places to travel, things to see, things to own, and this has brought in the question of affordability and financial independence. Young people are starting internships, they're starting start-ups. This is all letting them interact with money from a much younger age. And the ‘Finance Box’ aims at giving a layman, someone who knows nothing about finance, the tools and knowledge to be able to run their own finances, and plan something that helps them run a smooth life. The idea is not advisory. The idea is not to tell you to buy a product. It's to tell you -be educated, have the knowledge, know where your money is, know whether it's working for you, if it's not, know that you need to switch, know whether you need to put it somewhere more efficient. And I guess a lot of people just want to be more empowered now. They don't want to depend on someone else for their financial decisions. They want to be able to make decisions on their own. I guess that's really making us popular.
Binod Shankar:
Interesting point you made as to why, why we need this. Because you're so right- there are so many tempting options out there on spending your money; whether it's Netflix, or Amazon or Airbnb, or cheap holidays or air travel. I mean, it's so important that people don't just spend their money but needto manage their money. My second question is, with ‘Finance Box’, I know it's pretty new, but you've had some traction. But I'm sure you've had some challenges as well, right? Trying to spread the message of financial literacy. So, what are the challenges that you have faced and you're facing? And how are you overcoming them?
Minakshi:
I think one of the biggest problems we faced as a financial education start-up was how to get people interested in what perceived to be such a mundane, such a scary topic- ‘finance’! Like, how to get people really interested in finance? A lot of people fear finance, they don't want to study it. We had to figure out how to teach hard topics to first-timers. You're someone who has no knowledge about the stock market, about mutual funds, about financial statements, banking, budgeting, personal finance, we had to teach all of these in a super simple and a fun way, while also making it applicable to real life.
We met this challenge by making financial concepts easy to grasp. And we taught in a way where our learner is able to relate to it. So, you give them an example. You show them how it works in real life. We provided study material, we provided games, we've had over 100 students now with us who I would very proudly like to say that we are financially empowered. And we're only four months into our journey of financial literacy. We've also started a winter and summer program for school kids aged 11 plus and we introduced them to the concept of money, we introduced them to the concept of, “Hey, you know, a job or a startup? Which would you choose? How to run a business something as simple as you know, having a lemonade stand? What would you do to set that up”? And I feel that this will strengthen their base from a young age, and we will rid them of that fear of Finance. So, as they grow older, they'll stop fearing finance as much as the current generation does. So, our biggest problem is telling people It's not scary, it's super easy. And one of the main ways we've managed to combat this is our workshops are live. So, we conduct them on zoom. And this encourages people to ask questions to clear doubts. And sometimes they come up with questions I wouldn't have even thought of because for me, being someone from finance, it's very obvious that, “Okay, this is how you would do it”. But I just realized that from a layman's perspective, who's never done something like that before, they have their own set of questions, their own set of doubts, and now we're slowly becoming much more familiar with what their issues are, and incorporating that into our syllabus, incorporating them into our live sessions. So, we're answering a lot more questions. We’re making it more relevant.
Binod Shankar:
Yeah, I agree with you as to why (and the fact that) finance is seen as a chore, something boring, and even something fearful and scary because of complex concepts and numbers. I think, it's all the more important that we try to demystify and make finance simpler for the layman to absorb. Now, on a related point, who do you think should know more about finance? But probably my more important question here is, what do you think they should know about finance and why?
Minakshi:
I definitely think young students, 8th standard (8th Grade) onwards, should definitely be made more aware about finance. Students should be taught about saving, about budgeting. To build a strong mindset from a younger age, they should be aware that there are many challenges involved with earning money. And it should be spent wisely and after a lot of thought. A lot of young students nowadays treat debt, (they get credit cards or student loans) they treat them very casually. You know, most of this casualness comes from the fact that they're not aware about the consequences associated with not paying off their debts on time. So, if younger people are made more aware of finances, as they grow older, they will be smarter citizens.
Binod Shankar:
Now I'm going to talk about something which is not exactly linked to financial literacy. But now, you're married, right? You're a Mrs now, and I'm curious to know what has been your experience in relation to pursuing a Finance career post marriage in India as an Indian woman.
Minakshi:
So honestly, I've been blessed. I'm really, really lucky. Because I'm, I guess, one of those lucky few that have a supportive husband. He wanted me to pursue whatever career that I wanted. Whatever career that made me happy. I live with my in-laws, and they too, are a Godsent. They've always encouraged me to work, to study, to pursue anything I want. And I’ve not had restrictions. I have my PhD entrance exam, which I gave yesterday (fingers crossed). And hopefully, in five years, instead of Mrs. Minakshi Agarwal Todi you will be speaking to Dr. Minakshi Agarwal Todi. So, these are my experiences so far.
Binod Shankar:
All the best for your PhD! I mean, actually, and you do realize that, you know, by publicly lauding your husband and in-laws, you’ve scored some major brownie points with them, right? I mean, that's a very smart move on your side. Of course, now, I must come, as always, with podcasts, that we need to sort of come to the wrap-up. You've done your masters, right? You've worked in investment banking in the city, you've travelled worldwide, and now you're an entrepreneur and a teacher. So, I mean, I'm really quite impressed because so much in such a short time. And normally, at your age, you know, I wouldn't be asking questions like what would you advise others to do? Because, at your age, normally, people haven't achieved so much, normally. But you're different. So, I'm going to ask you a question, which I normally ask people who are much more experienced, much more senior. And the question is, what are the three career tips that you would give youngsters who are at the threshold of starting some career? What do you tell them?
Minakshi:
Thank you for your question. And I'm really touched that you are asking me for advice. And let me try and give you something different, some tips, which are slightly different from what you've probably heard.
1) Show off what you know, but acknowledge what you don't know. This comes from what I spoke earlier, saying you must say what you don't know because no one's a mind reader. They're not going to know your limitations. So only show off what you know, and what you don't- go out there and ask for help. There's nothing wrong in asking for help for what you don't know.
2) Be there early. Get into the office early and work in the early morning hours. Don't stay too late. Don't do that late-night culture. Don't do that face time culture. It's much, much better in the long term. And you have more perspective, you're fresher. And your attention to detail is much better.
3) It won't always be easy. It's not going to be easy, but hang in there. People will only have as much confidence in you as you have in yourself. So always have confidence in yourself, because it's not going to be easy. I've not had an easy road, but I hung in there. And if you hang in there, you'll definitely make it.
Binod Shankar:
Very well said. I liked your second point, “Be there early and don't stay too late”. I know you're referring to working hours. But I see it as from a larger perspective as well, which is basically you try out a career early in life. See how it works for you, what you like, what you don't like, but don't stay for too long, right? For example, Chartered Accountancy, you're good at it, didn't like it, moved on. Your investment banking career, you're good at it, you'd liked it for a while and then moved on exactly at the right time. I think, in your case, I think you're very good at timing, in terms of not staying too long, and basically getting bored and feeling meaningless. And upon the three points, I think what's really impressive about your career, has been the fact that you made a shift from (for lack of a better word), ‘profit to purpose’ in such a short time at such a young age. Where you decided that you've been there, the glamorous life and investment banking in the city, and decided that things had to change. So, that is very rare. And if youngsters think that you can't have your cake and eat it too. Probably you're the proof that you can have both sides of life. You can make money, live the glamorous life, but also, you can make an impact. And just like I try to do with this RFM podcast, which is to deliver insight and inspiration. So, all the best of luck for your future endeavours, especially with Finance Box, and with your PhD. I think, you have a long way ahead in your career. I’ll be very interested to see how fast and how far you progress. Thank you so much again, Minakshi, for making the time today. It's an absolute pleasure hosting you. I hope the listeners find this particular interview inspirational and informative, and insightful as well. Thank you so much, and all the best.
Minakshi:
Thank you so much for having me.
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Binod:
This podcast is brought to you by the real finance mentor. Thank you so much for listening and I really hope you found it insightful and inspirational. If you did enjoy this episode, please drop us a review and spread the word. You should check out more exclusive content on therealfinancementor.com and my LinkedIn profile which is: Binod Shankar, FCA, CFA. Let’s keep in touch! Just add your name to the mailing list on therealfinancementor.com, and we’ll tell you about new episodes plus book reviews, upcoming events and blogs. Till the next time, onwards and upwards.
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